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Patrick W has posted his handsome Williams B&O F3's from time to time and recently someone was asking why the color is so different (or far off) from the prototype colors.  Seems I saw a story many moons ago in one of the magazines or club newsletters explaining how some Lionel salesman had obtained a photo or image somewhere depicting the striking B&O colors of blue and light gray that was 'off' quite a bit. He presented it to the Lionel board in 1954/55 as a suggested scheme for another run of the iconic F3's.  

My memory of this is quite vague but does anyone else remember the actual details of this story?

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Whoever is responsible for this is related to the current, living person who put the silver paint on the front of the VL Niagara, the neon green of several Great Northern Steamers, and the grey smokebox and firebox of my VL 3985.

Or so I would guess.,,,,   

I believe that c.sam is talking about the 2368 Baltimore and Ohio Lionel Corporation 1956 model that had a much lighter blue color than the real deal B&O Railroad used on their locomotives - the person/people resposible for choosing that shade of blue have most likely gone to that big roundhouse in the sky (or the fiery blast furnace down below)...

I'm sure that's the case, MTN.  I was just adding some sarcasm....and making a mild point.   

I'll see your Lionel color mismatches and raise you my early MTH L&N F3 diesels and matching 15" passenger cars where the cream/ivory stripe on the diesels is almost orange - not remotely close to matching (with shortened Blomberg trucks to boot) - all the manufacturers botch paint colors, some more than others to be sure.

C. Sam although I don't know the answer to the question you pose.  I'm sure someone on the OGR Forum will come up with an answer to your question.  I'm curious to see any answers that come up. Thanks for asking the question.   Until you asked that question I just figured Lionel management , back in  the 1950s,  just came up with a scheme that they thought would sell and and called it "close enough", then went ahead with production.  I'm sure in due time there will be folks that chime in with a factual answer to your question.  

I do believe that K line came much closer to the B&O F3 prototype paint scheme than post-war Lionel.  Of course Williams intention was to immediate the Lionel post-war model of th F3 not the prototype ... I wish Williams would have made both.   I'll try to take some side by side photos of K line/ Williams this weekend.   Meanwhile here are some shots of both the K line and Williams models.

Top 4 photos are K line and bottom 3 are Williams.

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Last edited by trumpettrain

I don't see a comparison to the current production mismatches compared to post war Lionel colors.  At the time the color schemes were meant to be colorful and sell.  They were not always very prototypical.  The New Haven F3s, blue striped Virginian Train Masters, Silver CB&Q GP9s, blue and orange CNJ NW1s and so many others were never meant to match the prototype, but they were colorful.  Today's more scale-oriented production is intended to match the prototype and at times we have seen some interesting mismatches that were never intentional.

For what it is worth, the 1957 HO Athearn GP9 had colors that were closer to the Lionel F3 than the prototype also.   

Here is a 'counterfeit' B&O cab I bought on my first York in Oct 2009

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Lionel Legacy Shark and K-Line 80' passenger.  It took me awhile to adjust to the muted gray...

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I have to admit that I always liked the PW colors of these much better than the prototype which seemed 'dull' in comparison. I still like those 2363's a lot but have come to appreciate the prototype as well in recent years. Almost bought the B&O PW Celebration set a few years back too.

Hope someone else remembers the story about the Lionel salesman as I know I wasn't imagining it!  :-)

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@c.sam posted:

Here is a 'counterfeit' B&O cab I bought on my first York in Oct 2009

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Lionel Legacy Shark and K-Line 80' passenger.  It took me awhile to adjust to the muted gray...

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I have to admit that I always liked the PW colors of these much better than the prototype which seemed 'dull' in comparison. I still like those 2363's a lot but have come to appreciate the prototype as well in recent years. Almost bought the B&O PW Celebration set a few years back too.

Hope someone else remembers the story about the Lionel salesman as I know I wasn't imagining it!  :-)

I do remember something about the salesman story also. This is going to bother me now till we solve this..

I happen to have been casting a critical eye over the paint and lettering schemes on my RTR B&O diesels today: Williams F7, MTH FA-2, Lionel FT, MTH E6, and MTH E8. All have outright errors, and also post-1957-renumbering features that make them too new for my layout.

B&O carbody diesel paint schemes changed over time. The gray pilot with three blue stripes was changed to black about 1950. The imitation gold stripe separating blue and gray goes all the way to the rear on some builders photos, stops at the cab door on many photos, and is absent in many, particularly later on. A colorized postcard of an FT shows gray along the bottom rivet line above the underbody, but I've seen no photos like that. A B&W E8 builders photo shows a light color there, likely a gold stripe but possibly gray--who knows? Most photos show a blue carbody all the way to the black underbody.

Stripes and lettering were Dulux imitation gold, a yellow color more like Lionel's F3 stripes than the K-line gold.

Anticlimbers were painted gray, but the striker/buffer plate above the coupler was black, and generally had some rust on it unless freshly painted.

Roofs were black, not the dark gray of Lionel's F3.

So the outright errors on mine:

MTH E8: anticlimber/striker painted blue rather than gray and black.

MTH E6: no imit. gold stripe between blue and gray despite original paint/lettering scheme otherwise.

MTH FA-2: whole underbody is gray; striker/buffer over coupler is gray.

Lionel FT: Portion of carbody side covering fuel tank painted gray; Original single digit numbers but black pilot instead of gray with blue stripes as delivered; ends of units gray instead of black; gray striker over coupler; lettering gold instead of imitation gold.

Williams F7: anticlimber/striker painted blue instead of gray/black. Lettering gold instead of imitation gold.

I suspect I'll live with the gold lettering, but plan to correct the other errors, and backdate all post-1957 characteristics to 1950.

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