BASE3 and TMCC/CAB1 signaling problems

Someone else also suggested the iCAB app on another thread had good results. And yes. That does seem to make things work much better now. However would like to use a single app.

@Stone Rhino posted:

• 6-38402 Amtrak TMCC HHP-8 Electric Locomotive #664 (link) will do anything but move.

Are you SURE that you have the HHP-8 configured as a TMCC locomotive and not as the default Legacy locomotive? Not having motion but sounds working is the exact symptom you'd see if it was being addressed as a Legacy engine.

Also make sure you only have one powered base connected to the track. (So you can have both wired up, but apply power to only one).

Gents, thanks. I was able to find the instructions to reset the database on Base3. It wasnt easy to get to, but I was able to wipe it out. I found out that I had a corrupt database and attempting to add anything was met with misconfiguration.

After the reset I was able to get the BTLE engine to pair, add to roster, and be properly controlled. Next step is try some ERR equipment again.

@illinoiscentral posted:

Also make sure you only have one powered base connected to the track. (So you can have both wired up, but apply power to only one).

Oh yeah. Learned that lesson back in 2006. Never again.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Are you SURE that you have the HHP-8 configured as a TMCC locomotive and not as the default Legacy locomotive? Not having motion but sounds working is the exact symptom you'd see if it was being addressed as a Legacy engine.

That was what I was trying last night. I attempted to cycle between TMCC and CAB1. No movement. The base acknowledged the instruction and it looked like it TX to the loco. Going to try again with the TMCC/ERR equipment again after this database wipe.

Since the HHP-8 uses the Cruise Commander electronics with a standard R2LC-C08 TMCC receiver, it should act just like any other TMCC locomotive.

@gunrunnerjohn The interaction is bizarre. By default it detects and sets the ERR unit as TMCC, which is fine. I have control and whatnot of the loco; however, it appears that only some of the signal gets transmitted, or its sending too much (spamming instructions).

My legacy made back in 2008 seems to be working flawlessly. Its only CAB1/TMCC stuff that is acting up.

Very strange, but I don't have the BASE3, so I can't verify it.  I know people are running TMCC, and I presume ERR TMCC, with the BASE3/CAB3, so there must be a way.

But question is, is it limited to the APP or the base? BTLE and Legacy stuff work without issue. Direct BLTE from the app seems to work like the lion chief. Most folks already have the CAB2 / 1L handhelds.

It's pretty difficult for me to believe that the Lionel folks didn't test TMCC operation with the CAB3/BASE3 combo, that would be an omission of prodigious size!   I'm guessing that you have some sort of configuration issue.

That is what I am certainly hoping! The Base3 + iCAB app says everything works. TMCC base says everything works. However I am seeing another thread where others are noticing TMCC issues. I'm going to get a CAB1L remote before I go any further to eliminate things.

The Cab1 sends 24-bit commands out its serial port, via the SER2, to the Base3.  As simple as it gets.  I monitor what's going on using a LCS WiFi (on another LCS port) and I haven't (yet!) seen a command keyed into the Cab1 handheld that is not echoed correctly to the LCS WiFi Monitor.

The SER2 wraps the 24-bit commands in PDI packet frames for sending to the Base3 and a firmware error could mess up the commands enroute to the Base3, but that's highly unlikely.

The most likely problem source is the Base3's roster misconfiguration that is causing logic in the base to translate a 24-bit TMCC command to a Legacy command.  If you have a LCS WiFi and a PC, recording the Base3's output of a problem session would help understand what's going wrong.

@Stone Rhino posted:

That is what I am certainly hoping! The Base3 + iCAB app says everything works. TMCC base says everything works. However I am seeing another thread where others are noticing TMCC issues. I'm going to get a CAB1L remote before I go any further to eliminate things.

There are some specific key sequences that apparently have a problem with the CAB3, they've been discussed and are already in the queue to be fixed.

@Tracker John posted:

The Cab1 sends 24-bit commands out its serial port, via the SER2, to the Base3.  As simple as it gets.  I monitor what's going on using a LCS WiFi (on another LCS port) and I haven't (yet!) seen a command keyed into the Cab1 handheld that is not echoed correctly to the LCS WiFi Monitor.

The SER2 wraps the 24-bit commands in PDI packet frames for sending to the Base3 and a firmware error could mess up the commands enroute to the Base3, but that's highly unlikely.

The most likely problem source is the Base3's roster misconfiguration that is causing logic in the base to translate a 24-bit TMCC command to a Legacy command.  If you have a LCS WiFi and a PC, recording the Base3's output of a problem session would help understand what's going wrong.

Good to know @Tracker John ! However I have removed my cab1/tmcc base entirely from the picture.

This does not explain how a LC+2.0 in TMCC mode can operate with the same settings and no control issues but a TMCC made 10+ years ago is erratic (it works, but better be prepared to go catch it when it flies off your layout). Second, this does not explain why iCAB app (the one released for LCS) is able to safely control the same ERR based TMCC units, with the base3.

This has to be something as simple as a signaling rate adjustment or bad instructions being generated. I mean if I have to have an entire roster of "Diesel" engines in TMCC mode with "No Sound" selected, despite being electric and steam, I might be okay with that but the functions are inconsistent.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

There are some specific key sequences that apparently have a problem with the CAB3, they've been discussed and are already in the queue to be fixed.

So looks like a CAB1L handheld until that is hammered out. Thank you @gunrunnerjohn

@gunrunnerjohn @Dave Olson - I purchased a CAB1L handheld from my local hobby shop. Paired with base. I used the non-functional ERR based TMCC locomotives with Base3 exclusively in testing now.

I can confirm; IT IS THE CAB3 APP

CAB1L remote paired with BASE3 - Works 100% Function
iCAB app works with approx 97% function (It works but there are fine throttle control issues. Base3 inaccessible in network mode from this app. Must be AP mode)

CAB3 app works with 40% function. Erratic throttle response and some locos do not respond to throttle at all. Aux code functions work without issue.

Tested with iPhone 12 and 5c (yes i know its old).

@Tracker John posted:

The Cab1 sends 24-bit commands out its serial port, via the SER2, to the Base3.  As simple as it gets.  I monitor what's going on using a LCS WiFi (on another LCS port) and I haven't (yet!) seen a command keyed into the Cab1 handheld that is not echoed correctly to the LCS WiFi Monitor.

The SER2 wraps the 24-bit commands in PDI packet frames for sending to the Base3 and a firmware error could mess up the commands enroute to the Base3, but that's highly unlikely.

The most likely problem source is the Base3's roster misconfiguration that is causing logic in the base to translate a 24-bit TMCC command to a Legacy command.  If you have a LCS WiFi and a PC, recording the Base3's output of a problem session would help understand what's going wrong.

How do you have this connected? Is it as simple as connecting the SER2 to the Base3 using a standard PDI cable (6-8150x) and connecting the SER2 to the TMCC Command Base using a standard 9-pin serial cable? Do you need a Null Modem adapter? Thanks.

This thread has a discussion on the db9 male to male null modem cable and link to Web store part.

@Tracker John posted:

This thread has a discussion on the db9 male to male null modem cable and link to Web store part.

Doh! Can't believe I missed that. Thanks for the info!

@Jeff Stoner posted:

How do you have this connected? Is it as simple as connecting the SER2 to the Base3 using a standard PDI cable (6-8150x) and connecting the SER2 to the TMCC Command Base using a standard 9-pin serial cable? Do you need a Null Modem adapter? Thanks.

I am anxious to try this!!!  All I need is a "NULL MODEM CABLE"  from the TMCC Base to the SER2.

FREDSTRAINS   

Fred, These can be found on Amazon for a pretty cheap price. Search for a Male to Male null modem cable, which should be less than $10.

@H1000 posted:

Fred, These can be found on Amazon for a pretty cheap price. Search for a Male to Male null modem cable, which should be less than $10.

H1000,

I found the Cable, But I have another problem!! I am allready using the DB9 "OUTPUT" of my "SER2' to all my ASC2's.

Now what?

FREDSTRAINS

@Fredstrains posted:

H1000,

I found the Cable, But I have another problem!! I am allready using the DB9 "OUTPUT" of my "SER2' to all my ASC2's.

Now what?

FREDSTRAINS

Get another SER2.  I imagine you could "Y" the output of the SER2.

@Fredstrains posted:

H1000,

I found the Cable, But I have another problem!! I am allready using the DB9 "OUTPUT" of my "SER2' to all my ASC2's.

Now what?

FREDSTRAINS

I think in your case Fred you can use both the terminal screws ports for communication to your ASC and then use the DB9 port for your TMCC BASE, no need for an additional SER2.

According to the Manual with the SER2, this is permitted:

To wire up the ASC to a SER2, follow the instructions in the SER2 manual:

The SER2 manual can be found HERE.

@MartyE posted:

Get another SER2.  I imagine you could "Y" the output of the SER2.

Marty,

I could add another SER2 just to give me the option of adding the TMCC base and CAB1. Seems like a lot to invest just to do that, though.  I allready have the CAB1L and (2)  CAB2's. and now the BASE 3.  Do they make a "Y" Adapter, I could try.  I will get my Manual out on the SER2 and see if there any alternatives to change the output from the SER2 to my ASC2's. Might be FUN to experiment!!! 

Fredstrains

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Since the HHP-8 uses the Cruise Commander electronics with a standard R2LC-C08 TMCC receiver, it should act just like any other TMCC locomotive.

I have this exact same engine, and have the same issues with using the Cab3 app. I believe it's something with how the app sends throttle commands versus the CAB1L/CAB2, both of which work just fine, even with the Base3. I can't find the thread, but someone indicated it was a known bug with the app.

@J.Dooley posted:

I have this exact same engine, and have the same issues with using the Cab3 app. I believe it's something with how the app sends throttle commands versus the CAB1L/CAB2, both of which work just fine, even with the Base3. I can't find the thread, but someone indicated it was a known bug with the app.

It is a known bug, the CAB3 is only sending absolute motor speed commands, all the previous remotes and systems send both absolute and relative speed commands.  I'm sure it's on Dave's list for the next release.  That had to break a bunch of stuff, somewhat surprising the testers didn't see that before now.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It is a known bug, the CAB3 is only sending absolute motor speed commands, all the previous remotes and systems send both absolute and relative speed commands.  I'm sure it's on Dave's list for the next release.  That had to break a bunch of stuff, somewhat surprising the testers didn't see that before now.

Honestly, it was kinda fun to troubleshoot. Digging into what documentation there is and realizing what the issue was took some time, but I enjoyed it and learned a little more about the system.

@Fredstrains posted:

Marty,

I could add another SER2 just to give me the option of adding the TMCC base and CAB1. Seems like a lot to invest just to do that, though.  I allready have the CAB1L and (2)  CAB2's. and now the BASE 3.  Do they make a "Y" Adapter, I could try.  I will get my Manual out on the SER2 and see if there any alternatives to change the output from the SER2 to my ASC2's. Might be FUN to experiment!!!

Fredstrains

I see in the “POST” above mine there is an alternative!   Will try that and let everyone know !!!

@Fredstrains posted:

I see in the “POST” above mine there is an alternative!   Will try that and let everyone know !!!

Well I did it!!!  I rewired the SER2 by moving the "OUTPUT" from the CABLE CONNECTOR to the TWO Screw Teminals.  I connected the TMCC Base ( Which I had in Storage ever since LEGACY came out) to the SER2 with the Null Modem Cable, suggested in one of the POSTS before mine!  Quess, what???,  4 New Batteries in the CAB1 ( that was stored along with the TMCC BASE)  and I was off to the Races!  It worked GREAT!!!   Now I can Control my Engines with CAB1, CAB2, CAB1L or the New CAB3.  Thanks to all the Forum Members that contributed INFORMATION (on the FORUM) needed to accomplish this!!  LOVE this FORUM!!

FREDSTRAINS

P.S......Now I need to Order some DIESEL & STEAM  "OVERLAYS" from LIONEL for my CAB1's. I have TWO.     LOL