Basic restoration/repair q's... fixing up a 390E

Great project to start with.

As far as getting her running, after dis-assembly remove and clean the brushes and armature. Add some grease to all the gears. All the moving parts look pretty dry, so after cleaning be sure to sparing oil all moving parts, including siderods, pick-up rollers and bearings.

With the binding siderod, is the replaced wheel on that axle where the binding is occurring? The wheel may not be pressed far enough on the axle. Check the wheel gauge with a piece of track. You can also try running it without the siderods and see if that makes any difference.

Since this is going to be for the kids, I recommend baking the paint on to create a tougher finish. It is simple to do with a large cardboard box. Line the box with aluminum foil. Install two lights with 100 watt bulbs. You have to come up with an attachment method for the lights. I use those clip on fixtures but my box has a would frame that I attach to. Once you can safely transfer the painted parts after painting, put them on a rack and turn the lights. Close up the box and leave it in there for two hours. After that the paint will be fully cured and you can start assembly.

Good luck and be sure to post progress pictures.

For reproduction parts you can try these places.

http://www.drtinkertrains.com/

http://www.ttender.com/

http://www.smittystoytrainparts.com/00-mainpage.html

http://www.traindoctor.com/service/catalog.asp

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Pytel:

2) Actually getting her running... the engine definitely growls when I put power to it, but it isn't moving. For starters, there are clearly some issues with rods and wheels binding. You can see the problem here:



The axles for the drive wheels seem pretty loose to me, especially the rear set. As I don't have an existing vintage unit in good working order, I don't know just how much play there should be. But it feels like a problem to me. The wheels themselves are all original except for one MEW drive wheel. The pilot wheels are in poor shape and will definitely be replaced. From what I've read, original wheels frequently have problems with swelling or other deformation, which I imagine could also be part of the issue here. Given that this engine will definitely be a runner, is there any sense to trying to save the original wheels, or will it just make my life easier to order a set of repros and be done with it? When it comes to repro wheels, are there better and worse places to get them?

Todd, the issue is zinc-pest. The reason for the binding is that the wheel is "coned" outward. The wheel die-cast parts are swelling and the metal rim constrains it into a cone. I suggest that you replace ALL the wheels. At 8-9 per this is very reasonable, and there is no loss-of-value since this will be repainted, re-trimmed etc. I would suggest that MEW (Model engineering works) wheels are better but MTH might be all that is available at this time. Check TTRP online for MEW parts.

The work itself is MORE important than the wheels. Tolerances and gauge is fairly tight on BAL motors, especially the diamond gear plate variety like yours. the gears MUST be concentric on the wheels, and the wheels concentric to the axles. Having the right tool (or repairman) is key to good performance.

Hi Todd, Randy here. Congrats on the purchase of the 390E, I've got several of these locos and it's second easiest Lionel standard gauge steamer to work on (the 384 being the easiest). Having said that, please allow me to put forth a little advice - please, DO NOT "restore" that locomotive! Granted, it is not a shiny new penny like the MTH repros, but hey, you're looking at a piece of history there - not a Chinese repop - that has eighty-years of memories and legacy built into it. You erase that, and you will have forever taken away something that cannot be put back. Originality is a one-time-only thing - it cannot be made original again. Your loco, in my opinion, does not need repainting or a restoration, it just needs perhaps a bit of touch-up and repair. Under NO circumstances would I take this engine apart and repaint it entirely.

As for the motor. That's the basic Bild-a-Loco which will last forever. Your third photo shows a bad rear wheel, it has expanded and is cracking - that's your major problem I can see right there. There shouldn't be slack in the wheels on the axles either; that will lead to the drive wheels going out of quarter and causing the rods to bind. As has been stated, take all the rods off and see if the loco will run around the track without them. Do this only after applying some oil to the gears and armature shaft - these locos LOVE oil and lightweight grease on the gears. I would strongly suspect you'll end up needing to replace all four drive wheels.

On the lead truck wheels I see only one chip that doesn't look that terrible. Just because the wheels have cracks in them doesn't mean you have to throw them away. If the loco tracks on the rails okay and it doesn't derail in the curves, a few chips in the front or rear truck wheels aren't anything to worry about, and again, I wouldn't replace them until you absolutely have to.

Handing an original 390E over to a child, even if you "restore" it might not be the best idea in the world. Again, it's eighty years old no matter what you do to it, and even though you can't see it, that zinc frame is no longer meant to be handled roughly on a regular basis - I guarantee you if you magnify it enough under bright light, you will find tiny spiderweb cracks. With care, that frame will still last longer than you and I will, but if it's being knocked around by a child, it's going to break - again, this isn't an MTH repro and the casting imperfections are there; it's just the nature of the beast.

You can have a nice looking and nice running ORIGINAL loco there with just a little work and a minimal outlay of cash. Touch up the bad spot, blend the paint into the original black, replace the drive wheels, maybe get you a new armature and some brushes from Bill Hannon, and you'll have a loco that collectors will want for the rest of time and it's history will be preserved. If you take it apart and restore it completely, its resale value is going to be shot to pieces and it's likely never going to be able to live up to being used as a modern kid's toy - the repros are far better suited to that role.

I run all of my locos and have a 390 and two 390E's. Restoration of an original standard gauge loco, in my opinion, should ONLY be done as a last resort, when you have a basket case loco. You have a very decent engine there. Please, if you don't want to leave it original, consider selling it to someone who would leave it original and use that money towards buying a repro; used repros are cheap right now, I watched one sell on ebay last week in like-new condition for around $350 with its original boxes and packaging.

Not trying to be a whiner, but, I'm a collector and operator, and history is history - once it's undone, you can't put it back. Not trying to be a jerk, please don't take it that way; on the contrary, you have a VERY nice engine there that any of us would be proud to own. I'd just hate to see its nostalgic charm taken away. Take care.

quote:

Originally posted by NJCJOE:
With the binding siderod, is the replaced wheel on that axle where the binding is occurring?

The replacement is on the other axle on the same side. But it seems like the rods don't quite fit properly on either side, depending on how the axles are situated. Again, there seems to be more play there than there probably should be. I'm going to take the rods off in a few minutes and get a closer look.

quote:

Since this is going to be for the kids, I recommend baking the paint on to create a tougher finish.

I have a number of paint-related questions that I was saving for after the mechanical part. I've read a bit about the whole baking thing and may do that. But I'm also interested in learning more about the techniques used to match repaints more closely to the original paint finish and texture. Lots to learn before I get there...

quote:

For reproduction parts you can try these places.

Thanks. Some of those I didn't have, or didn't have links for. I have a similar question there as with the wheels - are any particular repro parts any better than others? I've read some comments on items where people have questioned whether a trim piece was original or repro based on its fit. Do some reproducers work to tighter tolerances than others?

Also, a quick basic wheel question. I took a closer look at the trailing truck wheels and they're clearly repros as well. They slid off the axle with just a little oomph. Is that kind of friction fit standard for wheels? If so, I guess I don't want to go popping them on and off unnecessarily lest they loosen up.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob English:
The reason for the binding is that the wheel is "coned" outward. The wheel die-cast parts are swelling and the metal rim constrains it into a cone. I suggest that you replace ALL the wheels.

Yeah, I can see that deformation pretty clearly on one of the wheels, less on the other two originals. But it makes sense that just using a matched set of new drive wheels would be the best path forward.

quote:

The work itself is MORE important than the wheels. Tolerances and gauge is fairly tight on BAL motors, especially the diamond gear plate variety like yours.

Would you mind elaborating on the "diamond gear plate" bit? I didn't realize that there were significant variations in the BAL motors. How do you know which is which, and when it matters?

Thanks for the comments.

quote:

Originally posted by Nachtjager:
Not trying to be a jerk, please don't take it that way...

Not at all. I completely understand your position (which I know is shared by some others here), though I'm not sure I completely agree with it. I will say that I chose this 390 in part because it's not a rare collector's item, nor did it have outstanding original paint. I'm not much of a collector of things just for the sake of collecting, but I do understand that mindset enough to not want to take rare items out of circulation that could be making others happy. However, I don't think a plain jane, black and orange 390 rises to that level. There are 2-3 listed on eBay in any given week, and only so many people interested in collecting them.

That being said, I'm in no way set on repainting the whole thing. If I can learn how to fix up that patch without making a mess of it, that's certainly a possibility.

The wheels on the front/rear axles are friction fit. That said, time and repeated removal will loosen them up. If the wheels are still good, a pair of linesman pliers (the cutting portion) can be use to score the axle (kind of like you are trying to cut the axle). It will raise the metal enough (a crude knurl) to tighten the wheel on the axle when it is pressed back on.

I have found the best way to test wheels is on curved track. Zinc pest can be obvious or slight. Placing the loco on curved track will determine if the wheels have expanded too far (the flanges will not fit between the rails). This is true for both the lead/trailing trucks and drive wheels.

I have found that some of the aftermarket wheels are too thick, so that when they are assembled in the motor the gauge is too wide. I usually turn the inner hub down in my lathe to get the proper spacing.

Those MEW wheels certainly do seem tough to find at the moment. TTRP appears to be out of the stock of the red 4-36 wheels I'd want. I sent a note inquiring about them to see if more will be arriving. I also sent a note to traindoctor and Smitty's, as they list compatible wheel sets as well. Any other places I should look? Googling didn't turn up very much. Anyone with a set sitting in a drawer?

Beyond the wheels, there are still some problems with the motor. I took it out of the frame and put some power to it, but it still just buzzes at me with no signs of motion. I'm sure I could use some grease for the engine, which I don't have handy. But the wheels still turn pretty freely as they are, so I think there's more to it than that. I'll keep digging at it.

Finally, one more simple question... I assume the 390 *did* have an operating headlight, yes? There are no wires nor any kind of fixture inside the boiler front of this loco.

Got a note back from TTRP - more MEW wheel sets should be available in the next week or two.

Some pics of the innards, before any significant cleaning...





The white wire at the bottom of the first photo has badly cracked insulation and will need redoing. The armature is predictably grimy, but it seems like all the pieces are intact. We'll see how the brushes look after I get the gunk off.

After poking at it a bit, I'm not really clear on how the E unit is supposed to work. I see that the big lever at the right of the first photo controls whether there's contact at the point just above the wire. But I'm not understanding what that has to do with the rest of the assembly or whether mine is in good working order or not. Any hints or references?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Pytel:
Those MEW wheels certainly do seem tough to find at the moment. TTRP appears to be out of the stock of the red 4-36 wheels I'd want. I sent a note inquiring about them to see if more will be arriving. I also sent a note to traindoctor and Smitty's, as they list compatible wheel sets as well. Any other places I should look? Googling didn't turn up very much. Anyone with a set sitting in a drawer?

Beyond the wheels, there are still some problems with the motor. I took it out of the frame and put some power to it, but it still just buzzes at me with no signs of motion. I'm sure I could use some grease for the engine, which I don't have handy. But the wheels still turn pretty freely as they are, so I think there's more to it than that. I'll keep digging at it.

Finally, one more simple question... I assume the 390 *did* have an operating headlight, yes? There are no wires nor any kind of fixture inside the boiler front of this loco.

MEW wheels will be hit and miss it seems. Be thankful, it used to be YEARS not WEEKS between part re-stockings.

390 has a headlight.

The armature is is pretty rough shape. The grooving is fairly significant on the commutator, which can be filed or turned off on a lathe. The entire assembly can be cleaned with mineral spirits.

I'll come back to you on the e-unit.

I wouldn't bother with that armature, Rob's right, the grooves in the barrel look quite deep - I don't think you'll be able to smooth that out without breaking the copper off. I'd spend a few bucks and get a new armature from Hannon, they're well worth the money and the loco will run like a jack rabbit.

The brushes look pretty well worn out as well, but again, go with Hannon on that too. Probably for under $80 you can get everything you need. Might as well replace pickup rollers while you're at it, good contact with the track is essential and the original rollers are generally well worn in the center. This motor has a lot of miles on it, some kid enjoyed this loco!

Good luck, and blending new paint in with old isn't very hard to do, certainly a lot easier than removing all that copper and brass and putting it all back together again. Get some spray can laquer, a little automotive rubbing compound, invest a couple of hours, and that paint will be shining like crazy. Take care!

quote:

Originally posted by Nachtjager:


The brushes look pretty well worn out as well, but again, go with Hannon on that too. Probably for under $80 you can get everything you need. Might as well replace pickup rollers while you're at it, good contact with the track is essential and the original rollers are generally well worn in the center. This motor has a lot of miles on it, some kid enjoyed this loco!

Take care!

To my eyes there appears that the rollers have very, very limited wear. I've seen pick-up rollers almost worn thru and these two almost look 'factory' new.

Ron M

quote:

Originally posted by Rob English:
Be thankful, it used to be YEARS not WEEKS between part re-stockings.

Having participated in other hobbies with those kinds of wait times, consider me thankful.

quote:

390 has a headlight.

Right. I'll have to figure out what I'm missing, then. Shouldn't be too hard compared to the rest.

quote:

Originally posted by Nachtjager:
I'd spend a few bucks and get a new armature from Hannon, they're well worth the money and the loco will run like a jack rabbit.

The brushes look pretty well worn out as well, but again, go with Hannon on that too. Probably for under $80 you can get everything you need. Might as well replace pickup rollers while you're at it...

I'll do that. In the meantime, I did some cleaning with what I had handy - no mineral spirits around, but I did have some (conductive) Labelle track cleaner to get some of the grime off the brushes and armature. This was as good as I could get...



Not perfect, but I hoped it would be good enough to get the motor moving. Sadly, that's not the case - still just buzzing at me. Is it unreasonable to expect the motor to move at least a little, given the shape of the brushes and armature? Or should I dig in further into the E unit wiring?

As for that wiring, I'm still trying to figure out how it's all supposed to fit together, but this part certainly doesn't look factory installed...



Any idea what's going on there? Repair, replacement, bypass?

Anyway, I'm going to keep digging at it. For starters, I need to understand the physics of all this a little better. Is there a proper term for this kind of motor? I'm basically comfortable with the principles behind a DC brushed motor, but I don't know so much about AC motors. Knowing what to search for on Wikipedia/Google would be helpful. Also, I found this page at Olsens with some reference material on E units, including a separate schematic for the 390. Any other useful links on how they work? Googling mostly only turns up info on the postwar unit.

These toy train motors will operate on either d.c. or a.c. They are known as 'series' motors. That means that power (let's call it the 'plus' or 'hot' side) goes into brush #1 thru the armature out the thru brush #2 to one end of the field winding and out to the other side of field to the 'negative' or 'common' side of the power source.

Ron M

The proper term for this kind of motor is a 'universal' motor, meaning it can work on both AC or DC. Instead of magnets for a field in a PM DC motor, it has a coil.

If the track polarity is reversed the motor continues to run in the same direction. To get this kind of motor motor to revese, the polarity of the field has to reverse respective to the armature. This is what the E-unit does, either the pre-Ives pendulum style that your 390 has or the later drum style E-unit.

Don't be deterred with the function of the old pendulum style E-unit. My 390 has one, and I have a 10E with one. With some patience, proper adjustemts and careful lube, they will work reliably.

Regards,

quote:

Originally posted by CJ Meyers:
The proper term for this kind of motor is a 'universal' motor, meaning it can work on both AC or DC. Instead of magnets for a field in a PM DC motor, it has a coil.

...which generates a magnetic field that switches polarity synchronously with the armature field. So they alternate together. Got it. Thank you.

Ron, the pickup rollers are indeed in good shape. The one on the right in the pic has a bit of a groove, but not too bad. I'd guess they were replaced at the same time as some of the wheels were, since they show a lot less wear than the motor parts. It would be interesting to know just how long ago that was, given how deformed some of the drive wheels are now. How long has MEW been making wheels?

One thing that hasn't been addressed is 'quartering'. A simple test is take the motor and turn the wheels to see if there is any binding.

Here's how Lionel addresses this in their "Directions for Assembling Lionel "Bild-a-Loco"":

"Attach the two short driving rods to the two pair of wheels, being sure that the gears on both wheels are on the same side. Place motor frame with gears facing you. Hold the driving wheels with large gears studs holding the connecting rods pointed upwards. Drop both sets of wheels into the long slots in the motor frame, but permit only one of the gears on the wheels to mesh with one gear on the motor. Then turn the other set of wheels as far as it will go, towards the wheels that are already in place, before dropping them in position. The wheels should now revolve freely. If they do not, remove them and repeat the procedure described above,until the correct position is obtained for both sets of wheels. The shoe is then put in place...."

Ron M

I've just been testing the motor without the rods at the moment. That shouldn't be a problem, right? The wheels are grounding the motor side plates independently, yes?

I like how no one is giving me hints about the E unit, BTW. Much more fun this way.

Anyway, I took the E unit connector off and am working on figuring out what's connected to what and why.



Is there any particular reason, apart from originality, to preserve this connector piece? Couldn't we do whatever we need to do just as well with a careful wiring job? I'm guessing this piece is meant to give the connections a low profile and keep them tight against the motor frame. But it's sure a pain to work with.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Pytel:
I've just been testing the motor without the rods at the moment. That shouldn't be a problem, right? The wheels are grounding the motor side plates independently, yes?

I like how no one is giving me hints about the E unit, BTW. Much more fun this way.

Anyway, I took the E unit connector off and am working on figuring out what's connected to what and why.

Is there any particular reason, apart from originality, to preserve this connector piece? Couldn't we do whatever we need to do just as well with a careful wiring job? I'm guessing this piece is meant to give the connections a low profile and keep them tight against the motor frame. But it's sure a pain to work with.

Todd, The entire chassis, axles wheels, frame, etc is the path to ground. Any "HOT" connections MUST be kept isolated. The connector provides a hard trace (of a larger "pipe" for electron flow) than most wire we would use. I say keep it. Just make sure that the hots are isolated.

I believe that the wiring is:

1 Ground
2 Brush
3 Brush
4 Pickup
5 Brush
6 Brush
7 Field
8 Pick-up / Headlight

quote:

Originally posted by Rob English:
The connector provides a hard trace (of a larger "pipe" for electron flow) than most wire we would use. I say keep it. Just make sure that the hots are isolated.

That makes sense. And it does look like I have torn insulation creating a short right at the pickup connection to the side plate, though it's possible that that happened when I removed the connector, which was sticking to the plate quite a bit.

quote:

I believe that the wiring is...

Correct, that's the way the traces run, and that's shown in the diagram at Olsens as well.

At this point, I'm pretty sure I understand how the motor is *supposed* to work. If someone could confirm or deny this, that would be helpful... Power is picked up from the center rail, then comes in through 4 and over to 8. I'm guessing when I take apart the E unit that I'll see a junction, with one path running through the E unit's solenoid, then back out through 7 and 1, then going through the field coil to ground. The other path from 8 runs to either 5 or 6 depending on the E unit's position, through one brush and the armature into the other brush, and then back to the E unit, where it probably grounds independently of 7. It's not clear to me how the "cold" brush is grounded regardless of the E unit's position, but that will probably make more sense when I can take it apart enough to get a closer look.

Presumably, then, this E unit was dodgy and the wire we saw connecting 3 to 4 was bypassing the E unit entirely and simply setting one brush to always be hot.

Sound right? I'm going to clean up that insulation and see if that's get her moving before going on to disassemble the rest of the E unit.

Sounds right to me.

Make sure that the contact on the top of the field is clean and that the manual lever is set right to allow function.

edit: Nevermind... you mean the lever at the top of the E unit. I still can't quite see how those fingers in there connect to everything else. Is the brush that the lever points to the hot one?

quote:

Originally posted by Rob English:
Make sure that the contact on the top of the field is clean and that the manual lever is set right to allow function.

The manual lever? That's the big lever on the opposite side of the motor from the E unit? I hadn't quite figured out exactly how that fit in yet. I'd guess I want it set so that contact is made with the rocker plate? What's the point of the lever, just to lock out the whole motor?

OK, we've got a little motion. Not much, but it's a start. Given how deformed the wheels are, it's not going to move much more than a few cm before encountering problems there anyway. Also evident, now that I know what to look for, is that the E unit isn't entirely shot. It occasionally, though not always, switches positions when power is interrupted. So that bypass wire is going to create more problems if the E unit switches to the wrong position. I'm wondering if maybe someone started trying to repair this unit and then gave up and abandoned it. Otherwise it's hard to understand why there would be a bypass wire when the E unit is still semi-functional.

Bob Hannon makes fantastic armatures or he can fix your old one as well. He restored both armatures for my 2 # 38 locos and they run great. Jeff Kane at the traintender is very good and fast for parts. The pendulume e unit like Rob said is a bit tricky but once you clean it, they do work quite well. I have been told that if you use MTH new wheels, the gear flange that the drive gear presses to is a different diameter than the original drive gear. You would have to use new style gears with them . I bought a set of Bowser replacements for my supermotor 10E and they were very good quality. I am told that Bowser can be hit or miss as well with quality and availablity. As for repainting , that is up to you and your kids, they might want to put a whole new set of scratches on her so they can tease each other about when they grow up. They were and still are toys ment to be enjoyed by children. The old style brushes like you have there are very rough on the commutator segments, as you can see. New carbon brushes are much more forgiving on it and should be changed out as well. Bob Hannons email is hannon@trainrefs.com

Hannon is also the guy you see on ebay selling new armatures with the kit that comes with bearings and brushes as well. $ 65.00 well spent.

I've contacted Bob for the armature and brushes. I did locate a set of Bowser wheels as well. If those MEW's don't appear in the next few weeks, I may order the Bowsers in the interim.

However, I'm stumped at this point of disassembling the E unit. After removing the cloth-covered connector from the E unit's contact plate, I can't see how to get further into the unit. The five nuts just hold down contact plates on the opposite side of the plate - they don't attach the plate to the 2 side plates AFAICT. And all of the posts connecting the side plates are riveted on. Am I supposed to just pry the two plates far enough apart to pull the contact plate out? Or is there some clever way to loosen those side plates that I'm not seeing?

The cloth contact strip was probably meant to ease production when new. Slap that contact strip on and nut it down, and they were done. You can replace it with wiring, so do as you please. I've done that before.

On the pendulum reverse unit, you sort of have to pry on it to slip the contact plate out. The flapper will most likely come loose as well. After that you can see the back side of the contact plate. The center nut can take the swivel plate off. Just take a picture or make a mental note of how things are put together. The contacts can be cleaned and adjusted if necessary and you should be able to get the thing working much better than before. I've used a scotch brite pad, etc to clean them.

You'll have to play with it and the center screw/nut tightness to find the sweet spot where it cycles with the most dependability.

Also, make sure that the flapper contacts the top contact when it should. Sometimes they get bent a little bit and don't contact all the time.

These are not the most durable items, and will not cycle properly forever. If you get it adjusted, it should work quite a while, but will need adjustment at some point.

As for the cloth contact joint, I'd keep it if I were you, but if you want to get rid of it, let me know. I collect odd parts when I can get them.

quote:

Originally posted by jsrfo:
The cloth contact strip was probably meant to ease production when new. Slap that contact strip on and nut it down, and they were done. You can replace it with wiring, so do as you please. I've done that before.

After playing around with it some more, I figured out the real reason for that homemade bypass wire - the trace between the power pickup and the E unit is broken. Hard to tell when it's covered in cloth. So I'll be rewiring it.

quote:

On the pendulum reverse unit, you sort of have to pry on it to slip the contact plate out.

Yup. Got it out. Pretty grimy in there. I think I've got the unit close to working properly, but the little pendulum guys aren't hanging right. So it tends to switch gears fine in one direction, but only occasionally in the other. Just need to fiddle with it...

quote:

Also, make sure that the flapper contacts the top contact when it should. Sometimes they get bent a little bit and don't contact all the time.

I was trying to figure out whether that flapper was supposed to be a conductor or not. I need to review the physics of why it's being pushed upwards.

Anyway, the armature is going off to Bob Hannon tomorrow for rebuilding and I'm sending the motor along with it so that he can check the fit of the shaft holes (no micrometer here). So I'll be taking a break for a while until I get it back and have time to work on it again. Hopefully some wheels will become available in the meantime. Thanks to everyone for all the help!

The flapper should be in contact with the thin contact at the top when the motor does not have power. The initial power application connects that to ground and fires the solenoid, causing the pendulum to flop positions.

At that point, the field is energized and the magnetic effect pulls the flapper down, away from the thin contact, de energizing the solenoid coil.