Battery replacement or BCR?

I like the BCRs. I have used a lot of them with no problems. If you go with a battery use the NIMH ones.

Dale H

Put in a BCR then forget about it. No low battery, no leaks, no corrosion, no storage problems, no need to change ever again. Been very happy with everything I've put a BCR into.

Regards

Ed,

We have converted several dozen PS 1 engines to the BCR over the years and they run perfectly. No issues at all. These engines are run in conventional mode using TMCC with Cab 1 and the TPC 400 or 300.  Just make sure to charge them properly as the instructions say, we usually wait 30-40 seconds at about 15-17 volts or so (aux 9 for 30-40 seconds then aux 8 for 5 seconds or so and then the direction button). Other folks have been positive on this, too.

We have not tried this on the PS2 engines yet, their batteries are still working but we will switch when the time comes. Hope this helps.

Rich

No question...BCR.

Factors to consider:

1. Number of engines you own: a few batteries you can keep track of; many batteries - hard to remember last time they were replaced .

2. Difficulty in battery replacement:  some engines are easy, I don't mind periodic battery replacement in those. Others require major surgery to replace - those definitely get BCRs. I only want to do them once.

3. How often you run your engines: if you have engines that are not run often, chances are batteries won't always be well-charged. It's very aggravating to want to run a particular engine only to find the battery needs a lengthy charge first. No worry about battery condition with BCRs.

Never had a problem with BCRs in either proto1 or proto2 engines, and I was one of Wayne's first customers many years ago.

Jim

Originally Posted by DGJONES: ... With the BCR, the user needs to remember to apply 10 to 12 volts to the track for one minute (60 seconds) and then run the engine like he always has ...The BCR will hold its charge for several hours so the start up requirement only needs to be done at the start of a running session ...

Switched all my PS1 engines to BCR's

Happy I did, never a problem with those engines now.

While we are still on this topic, how do the PS2 engines respond to the BCR, any issues,

and can you use the original BCR or the newer version?

Rich

Without question - do it!

I think Jim's advice is best.  Also remember if you run DCS the battery is not so critical for PS-2 engines.  Also, the 2.4V batteries have a longer life (7 plus years), while 8.4V are normally shorter 4-5 years.  I don't think replacing the 2.4V with BCRs is cost effective especially if you use DCS.  G

I replaced all my Ps1 locos with a BCR and 11 of them have failed.

Acording to my American repair man here in the UK he would advise against using them as they can cause damage to the charging circuit board.

It does seem to follow as all 11 locos need new boards now.

James

I just replaced all 7 of my PS2 engines with BCRs.  Happy so far (of course, it's only been a few weeks!).  Some I don't get a chance to run very often, so it'll be nice not to have to charge them up for hours each time.

BCRs, takes away all the frustration.

Are there different types of BCRs?

Ed

Ed

The BCR is nine volts for the PS1 system and the BCR2 is 3 volts for the PS2 systems.

Click here http://www.jandwelectronics.com/

Ed,

Here are both types of BCR's (BCR-1 and BCR-2).  

You guys are awesome! I'll need the BCR 2. Looks easy enough to install that even I might be able to do it. Does the plug on the end just fit into where the battery plugs in?

Ed

It's quite simple.  Just remove the body screws of your engine or tender (depending on your model) from the chasis, remove the MTH Proto battery and plug the BCR in its place.  No trick to it.  No sense of paying someone $25 to do it for you.  It takes 5 mintues.

One more thing, MB Klein also has the BCR's in stock.

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com...d-O-Gauge-s/1238.htm

Is it the difference in current?

Mark "Is it the difference in current?"

Yes voltage & hertz fully compatable.

James

I would be  interested to hear the full story on BCR's. I'm wondering if the damage mentioned above could have been caused by applying full track voltage to a fully discharged BCR, perhaps overloading the charging circuit? Or possibly an incompatibility with some power supplies due to different waveforms?

Don't assume that I am against BCR's. I just want to point out that they apparently require special operating instructions to charge them up for each new operating session. Do the instructions specifically say to apply a certain range of track voltage, for a certain time, with the loco in neutral? So what happens if an uninformed person tries to run the loco without knowing this information - risk of electronics damage?

I have one MTH PS1 loco which still operates normally with the original electronics and if I remember correctly, I measured a battery charge current of about 40+ ma at higher track voltages. The charging current to the battery increases with increasing track voltage. If I understand correctly, there is more chance of the battery running down if you run full sound volume and slow track speeds, unless you help charge the battery by applying track voltage for a time with the loco in neutral.

A BCR is a type of capacitor, so it would initially draw a higher current when it is fully discharged. I suspect it is not a good idea to use full track voltage to charge them when fully discharged. I do not have personal experience with using BCR's so I would welcome any specific information about their current draw characteristics in a ProtoSound application.

The information that I remember is to charge the BCR1 at 12 volts for one minute.

When you first bring the voltage to 12 volts there are NO engine sounds but after 30 to 40 seconds you will get sound. Then  power down and as  the voltage is then increased the engine will start in forward.

 Never had a problem with any PS1 equipped engine with a BCR installed

The BCRs are very forgiving. As Charlie says, 12 V is recommended, but I have charged them at a variety of voltages above and below that. There is a lower threshold below which it won't charge, but that will become obvious. If it isn't fully charged, a proto1 or a proto2 running in conventional will simply not start up when the direction button is pressed.

For a proto2 running under DCS, it will start immediately. However, don't shut it down until a minute or so has gone by since a charged battery or BCR is necessary for saving info on shutdown with the DCS system.

When BCRs first came out, I put them through some tough tests to see what would happen. Even when partially charged, charged at higher than 12 V, etc., they did not damage electronics.

I had a proto1 engine that was on the infamous "scramble list" that I was going to upgrade anyway. I was really brutal with it to see what would happen. But, I was never able to scramble it or cause any other damage by starting up with either partially charged or uncharged BCRs, intentional shorts during charging, charging at fill 18 V, etc., etc. They seemed to be bullet-proof.

That's not to say that there isn't an occasional dud out there, but IMO something else is going on with James's (Alibat) problems.

I have used a variety of postwar transformers, a Z-1000, a Z-4000, and a recent MRC transformer all with excellent results.

Jim

Fried boards do occur. The theory is if the charging board has a weak component it will burn out the board. I have seen this happen but not on an engine that has already been using a BCR. It may also be from too high a charging voltage. No one knows for sure why it happens.

Early QSI and MTH boards supposedly had weaker charging circuits and the intial current draw of the BCR is more milliamps then a battery.  So the charging circuit was overloaded and could fail.  Later boards had a more robust charging circuit and BCR were approved by the manufacture for use.  G

I bought a number of BCR 2's and one 9 volt BCR; and Ive had a few BCR equipped locomotives stall, at specific locations on my layout.

I operate with DCS, powered by a Z1000 brick; and, I don't have a voltage controller hooked in, so it's always full power to the track.

BTW, I always plug in the Z1000 brick(that turns on my track power), wait a few minutes then turn on a BCR equipped locomotive.

I've wondered if there is a problem with the batch of BCR's I got; and what causes the locomotives to die, at certain spots on my layout?

Another BTW, one of the problem units has a 9 volt BCR installed. So, both types of BCR equipped locomotives are experiencing problems.

Rick

When running PS2 and PS3, does the engine pick up the watchdog signal if the BCR is discharged?

Ed

I think the problem is elsewhere on the layout cited with problems. It is not revealed if a TVS is used or there are other factors such as transformer or poor wiring. The BCR is a circuit with super capacitors in series having a combined value of a little less than 1 farad and some zener diodes to keep voltage even between the 2.7 volt capacitors so they can withstand the 8.4 operating volts or whatever. (Supercaps have very wide tolerance in specs,+ 80%,-20%,the need for the zeners to balance voltage between capacitors wired in series)  The PS1 circuit is still proprietary so we do not know for sure but most charging circuits have or should have protection from over amperage draw on the chips. V10 chips for example commonly used in charging circuits have built in protection from overheating as do a lot of regulating chips.  A bad battery with reversed cells or one that has had memory effect is more likely to damage the charging circuit than a BCR. The range of track voltage is irrelevant as long as it is over the minimum circuit voltage needed that charges the battery. 12 or 18 volts should not matter at all as the circuit should be regulated.

The problem with the NICAD original battery is that it can develop a memory effect. It can be and measure 8.4 volts,but then suddenly drop to say 4 or 5 volts when a load is put on it. This sudden drop often is the cause of the scrambled chip syndrome. A capacitor circuit or NIMH battery does not discharge in this fashion. The scrambled chip problem or charging circuit is not the only thing that ever goes wrong with PS1 boards. Often the BCR is put in when problems have already developed and the BCR is blamed as the culprit.

I did the same experiment that Jim did. I had PS1 locos on the list and even one that previously scrambled. I could not get it to scramble and I tried for an evening with all different throttle sequences, but I am not saying it is impossible. However there is no way the BCR should damage a board if it is in good condition. If run with out first charging the engine will just not work right. The initial charge only need be done once during a running session. 

Dale H

I have reset 4 PS-1 with BCR so far this year, and I believe there are at least 2 events posted on the forum.  Just because an engine is on the list or is a PS-1 doesn't mean it is suceptible to faults.  The tolerances of the electrical components dictate differences between like models.

The faults occured when the owner hit the direction button after power up (very early).

Just remember to wait the 45sec when using BCRs for PS-1 engines.  It doesn't really matter for PS-2 engines using DCS.

Here is the Wiki article that folks like to quote and it is worth reading FULLY.  It takes 100s of cycles at the same voltage level to create a memory effect.  For the satillite it took several years to occur.  And all that does is have the voltage drop to that memory level.  Could be 7V which is perfectly fine for a PS-1 engine.  Also remember the PS-1 memory transfer only takes a few seconds to occur.

If you ever opened the 8.4V battery it has 2 4.2V cells.  Usually one dies first and you will see a battery that looks like 8.4V unloaded and drops immediately to 4V or less.  That is NOT memory effect, it is an END OF Life Battery.  Usually 4 years old or more.

""

Recently, nickel–metal hydride and lithium-ion batteries have become commercially available and cheaper, the former type now rivaling Ni–Cd batteries in cost. Where energy density is important, Ni–Cd batteries are now at a disadvantage compared with nickel–metal hydride and lithium-ion batteries. However, the Ni–Cd battery is still very useful in applications requiring very high discharge rates because it can endure such discharge with no damage or loss of capacity.

When compared to other forms of rechargeable battery, the Ni–Cd battery has a number of distinct advantages:

• The batteries are more difficult to damage than other batteries, tolerating deep discharge for long periods. In fact, Ni–Cd batteries in long-term storage are typically stored fully discharged. This is in contrast, for example, to lithium ion batteries, which are less stable and will be permanently damaged if discharged below a minimum voltage.
• Ni–Cd batteries typically last longer, in terms of number of charge/discharge cycles, than other rechargeable batteries such as lead/acid batteries.
• Compared to lead–acid batteries, Ni–Cd batteries have a much higher energy density. A Ni–Cd battery is smaller and lighter than a comparable lead–acid battery. In cases where size and weight are important considerations (for example, aircraft), Ni–Cd batteries are preferred over the cheaper lead–acid batteries.
• In consumer applications, Ni–Cd batteries compete directly with alkaline batteries. A Ni–Cd cell has a lower capacity than that of an equivalent alkaline cell, and costs more. However, since the alkaline battery's chemical reaction is not reversible, a reusable Ni–Cd battery has a significantly longer total lifetime. There have been attempts to create rechargeable alkaline batteries, or specialized battery chargers for charging single-use alkaline batteries, but none that has seen wide usage.
• The terminal voltage of a Ni–Cd battery declines more slowly as it is discharged, compared with carbon–zinc batteries. Since an alkaline battery's voltage drops significantly as the charge drops, most consumer applications are well equipped to deal with the slightly lower Ni–Cd cell voltage with no noticeable loss of performance.
• The capacity of a Ni–Cd battery is not significantly affected by very high discharge currents. Even with discharge rates as high as 50C, a Ni–Cd battery will provide very nearly its rated capacity. By contrast, a lead acid battery will only provide approximately half its rated capacity when discharged at a relatively modest 1.5C.
• Nickel–metal hydride (NiMH) batteries are the newest, and most similar, competitor to Ni–Cd batteries. Compared to Ni–Cd batteries, NiMH batteries have a higher capacity and are less toxic, and are now more cost effective. However, a Ni–Cd battery has a lower self-discharge rate (for example, 20% per month for a Ni–Cd battery, versus 30% per month for a traditional NiMH under identical conditions), although low self-discharge NiMH batteries are now available, which have substantially lower self-discharge than either Ni–Cd or traditional NiMH batteries. This results in a preference for Ni–Cd over NiMH batteries in applications where the current draw on the battery is lower than the battery's own self-discharge rate (for example, television remote controls). In both types of cell, the self-discharge rate is highest for a full charge state and drops off somewhat for lower charge states. Finally, a similarly sized Ni–Cd battery has a slightly lower internal resistance, and thus can achieve a higher maximum discharge rate (which can be important for applications such as power tools).

The primary trade-off with Ni–Cd batteries is their higher cost and the use of cadmium. This heavy metal is an environmental hazard, and is highly toxic to all higher forms of life. They are also more costly than lead–acid batteries because nickel and cadmium cost more. One of the biggest disadvantages is that the battery exhibits a very marked negative temperature coefficient. This means that as the cell temperature rises, the internal resistance falls. This can pose considerable charging problems, particularly with the relatively simple charging systems employed for lead–acid type batteries. Whilst lead–acid batteries can be charged by simply connecting a dynamo to them, with a simple electromagnetic cut-out system for when the dynamo is stationary or an over-current occurs, the Ni–Cd battery under a similar charging scheme would exhibit thermal runaway, where the charging current would continue to rise until the over-current cut-out operated or the battery destroyed itself. This is the principal factor that prevents its use as engine-starting batteries. Today with alternator-based charging systems with solid-state regulators, the construction of a suitable charging system would be relatively simple, but the car manufacturers are reluctant to abandon tried-and-tested technology.^{[citation needed]}

[edit] Memory effect

Ni–Cd batteries may suffer from a "memory effect" if they are discharged and recharged to the same state of charge hundreds of times. The apparent symptom is that the battery "remembers" the point in its charge cycle where recharging began and during subsequent use suffers a sudden drop in voltage at that point, as if the battery had been discharged. The capacity of the battery is not actually reduced substantially. Some electronics designed to be powered by Ni–Cd batteries are able to withstand this reduced voltage long enough for the voltage to return to normal. However, if the device is unable to operate through this period of decreased voltage, it will be unable to get enough energy out of the battery, and for all practical purposes, the battery appears "dead" earlier than normal.

There is evidence that the memory effect story originated from orbiting satellites, where they were typically charging for twelve hours out of 24 for several years.^[9] After this time, it was found that the capacities of the batteries had declined significantly, but were still fit for use. It is unlikely that this precise repetitive charging (for example, 1,000 charges/discharges with less than 2% variability) could ever be reproduced by consumers using electrical goods.

An effect with similar symptoms to the memory effect is the so-called voltage depression or lazy battery effect. This results from repeated overcharging; the symptom is that the battery appears to be fully charged but discharges quickly after only a brief period of operation. In rare cases, much of the lost capacity can be recovered by a few deep-discharge cycles, a function often provided by automatic battery chargers. However, this process may reduce the shelf life of the battery.^[10] If treated well, a Ni–Cd battery can last for 1,000 cycles or more before its capacity drops below half its original capacity.

[edit] Environmental impact   ""

G

If you are running the engine why would the BCR be discharged?

Good question Charlie. I should have been more clear. What I meant to ask is that if one hasn't used a PS2 BCR engine for a month and then puts it on the track, will it detect the watchdog signal if the BCR is fully discharged?

Ed

Yes - no problem, Ed.

Jim

Ed,

Even after charging them the DCS system tells me that the battery is low

That information is regarding the battery charging circuit, not the battery!

That does not mean that the battery is low, rather, the charging circuit is low because it's hardly working, meaning that the battery is charged.

This is good news and the battery does not need to be replaced.

This and a whole lot more is all in "The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", now available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book from MTH's web store site! Click on the link below to go to MTH's web page for the book!

Thanks Barry. I'm really mixed up about the battery status. I'll have to go back to your book and reread it. When I go to advanced/info I thought that when it says Battery: OK, high or low, it was talking about the engine's battery condition as I interpreted it in your book (page 49).

Hope you're getting excited about York. I can't make it this year and I'm not happy about it.

Ed

Ed,

The book has it wrong and I always seem to forget to correct it. This time, I've made a note to do so!

Thanks again Barry. I guess that if the reading after Battery states low, then the system is not charging because the batery is well charged. The opposite must be true for a reading of high. What is the best way to tell if the battery is ready for replacement?

Ed

Ed,

What is the best way to tell if the battery is ready for replacement?

Start the engine making sounds, either under DCS or conventionally, and immediately turn off track power. If sounds don't persist for 6-7 seconds the battery should be charged for 8-10 hours.

Then, if it still doesn't pass the above  test, it should be replaced.

I still haven't read a direct response to my question - would something inherently different in UK vs. USA electrical parameters; voltage, amperes, cycles, whatever, be directly responsible for 11/11 BCR failures?