Big Boy Question, what size are scale cars?

do you know the actual size of the real PFE  reefer? Divide the  actual size of a real PFE by .25 and you should get 14" or 56 scale feet, or multiply 14" times .25 and you get 56 scale feet, all this is dependent on whether the actual PFE car is 56' in length

What product number is the 14" car?

The 11" cars are pretty good models of 40' PFE cars. Cannot find a 14" car on the Lionel site. A concern in the new catalog, the 3 car set looks "reefer orange" like the previous sets while the Legacy set looks like some odd "reefer yellow" instead.

(Was going to order a set but do not want yellow cars...)

I'm certainly no authority on this topic here.  However, when Atlas-O produced their PFE wood-sided reefers -- which are usually done painstakingly to prototype dimensions -- they were done as 40' reefers.

So I think the Lionel PFE reefers catalog'd in the 2014 Signature catalog will look fine at 11.5".  I double-checked Lionel PFE reefers that I already own -- such as the 6-17397 steel-sided reefer and the 6-27361 wood-sided reefer -- and they are both 11.5" in length coupler-to-coupler.

The 14" car mentioned in an earlier post is actually a 6-29323 double-door boxcar which is an entirely different car style.  Both cars are nonetheless still "scale".

David

Regarding the color(s) of the PFE cars, it did evolve over the years, from a more yellow paint in the early PFE years (1907 -  1929), to the deeper orange color later on, introduced in 1929. Since PFE had 10,000's of cars in their fleet at that time, it took them to 1934 to get all their existing yellow painted cars over to the new standard orange side color. So, if you are pulling these behind a Big Boy, which first came on the scene in what, 1941, all the PFE reefers would have the orange side color.

This is all in the book, Pacific Fruit Express, by Thompson, Church & Jones. One of the best books I own!

Tom

Sadly Lionel has a poor history of bad color choices regarding accuracy.

I can say without a doubt that the Lionel PFE reefers I currently own (both steel-sided and wood-sided) are a deeper orange than the Atlas-O 8155 PFE woodsided reefers which I would categorize as a noticeably "lighter" orange.

Having said that, both shades of orange blend in quite nicely on a train.  Certainly nothing to be concerned about.  But then again, these kinds of things don't bother me one bit.  These products are, after all, just...   Oh, I better not say it. 

David

Lima.

The cars I got were not PFE but are UP Double-Sheathed Boxcar (6-27983) and the UP Double Door Boxcar with Ends (6-29323). The Double Door car is 14"

Lima Posted:

"Sadly Lionel has a poor history of bad color choices regarding accuracy"

While I don't argue that Lionel has made errors in paint, your comment infers that the others (Atlas, GGD, MTH, Williams, Weaver) have not made many or any errors, which we all know could not be further from the truth.

So...not to completely discount your comment, I think it would be better (and much more useful to our new members) to provide fact-based information when posting an opinion like yours.

OK, I'll start to help you out.

CNW green&yellow, Lionel has been very accurate. Atlas not so good. (Too saturated)

PRR DGLE, Lionel not so good...all others not so good either. (Too green)

See, it kind of helps to have at least a little understanding from where your opinion is coming from.

Of course, it would be most useful if you actually had a specific example in your comparisons (real or models).

Thanks for helping us understand your comments so we can be better educated about the color of things from a long time ago.

Charlie

I have 25 Lionel, MTH, and Atlas PFE scale reefers from the "big boy era." All are 10 1/4 inch long not counting couplers, which I figure means 40 feet inside plus walls and such. so, for that matter, at all the ATSF map Slogan reefers I have from that same period.  

As far as I know 40 feet is correct for the era.  What I know is from A W Thmpsons book Pacific Fruit Express.   PFE reefers started out with "30 ton" cars before WWI and the cars generally got larger over time: prior to WWII PFE has as many as 40,000 reefers but by the 1970s they had fewer than half as many, yet shipped more tonnage, because each class of car got larger.   During WWII and after they were mostly still 40 foot, as I understand.

Didn't realize they had shipped stuff from the new catalog. We are still waiting for our local store to get things from 2 catalogs ago! The cars should look great and they will give your train some of that old time size variance seen in pictures.

I have a feeling they were old stock inserted in the new catalog

If you weather the whole train up with soot and grime like the real trains were, the proper color really don't matter anyway

I know, I know.... most of you have no intention of weathering your Bigboy or reefers.

"Big Boy Question, what size are scale cars?"

I'm thinkin' that it depends on the size of the full scale cars.

Pete

I don't believe that there was one true PFE color.

PFE ran reefers - as many as 40,000 of them at one time, for decades.  Even assuming that they were all painted by at one site by one team always trying to mix and paint them the same way, they probably left the factory with  slightly different hues from time to time.  

More important though, paint fades.  When I was about five years old, I was very concerned that the three F3s heading up the SuperChief we were taking out to LA were very different colors.  One was shiny red, two really faded/almost orange.  That was no doubt typical for all RR euqipment, grimmy or not. 

Please, can someone answer:

WHAT, if any, were the various colors of reefers and did it depend on the era and home Railroad?

Thank you,

Ralph

Until recently, relative to the 40's and 50's, paints were famous for the capability to fade. Red was one of the very best faders.

But all colors faded, to some degree or other.

So, should a manufacturer reproduce the OEM color, it would stay pretty much the same color, while the actual 1:1 car would fade over time.

Maybe manufacturers should consider producing cars in various stages of fading.

I think you will have to be more specific, i.e. what railroad or reefer transport company, as well as what era. There were all kinds of yellows and oranges used on reefers, depending on whether PFE, WFE, Fruit Growers Express, BREX, SFRD as examples. Then there were the NYC and DL&W reefers painted white.

Lots of choices for both 40 foot wood and steel type reefers for the steam era.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you look at really old photos, you will see that car sizes are all over the place;  different heights, lengths, types and running gear.

You could probably run certain O27 freight cars intermixed with scale cars and it would likely be prototypical.

Fred

K-Line/Intermountain made 2 4-car sets (total of 8) PFE reefers for Western Depot.  They are still available.

Jan

I like the steel side reefers released from Lionel and MTH earlier. Great colors, scale size, and really great detail...

You're comparing a 40' car to a 50'. They are both scale cars.... and both could/would be pulled by the Big Boy.

Lionel gives total length which includes the couplers. Remember 1" equals 4 feet in O scale, and you can't really include the coupler length because they are NOT scale.

When I received the cars I realized one was 11.5" and the other is 14"

 

I looked at the PFE cars and they are listed as being 11  inches. So question is, would 11 inches be scale in relationship to the Big Boy or are these semi-scale cars and going to look small?

You're comparing a 40' car to a 50'. They are both scale cars.... and both could/would be pulled by the Big Boy.

 

Chris

Laid off sick is correct.  In the 1941-1959 service life of the Big Boys there were many types of box cars and reefers on America's railroads.  Almost all box cars and in revenue service in that period had a 40' 6" or 50' 6" interior length.  For the sake of simplicity they are referred to as 40 or 50 foot box cars.  Those 40 and 50 foot cars had a variety of widths, heights and construction styles.  If you stick with Lionel Standard O, MTH Premier and Atlas Masterline and Trainman products you will be getting scale models.  The MTH and Lionel web sites let you search by product line item type and road name so they make it easy to find their scale freight cars.

The oldest box cars in wide use throughout the Big Boy period of service were USRA designs.  The Lionel 6-27983 that you mentioned is a USRA double sheathed box car.  I believe that it is decorated in an as delivered paint scheme.

MTH and Atlas also make scale models of the USRA double sheathed box car.  Of the three the MTH car is the best model.  Both the MTH and Atlas USRA box cars have been offered in a later UP paint scheme.

Other era appropriate O scale 40 foot box car models include the MTH and Atlas USRA single sheathed box cars.  Both are very good models.

The Weaver single sheathed box car, the Atlas rebuilt USRA box cars, the Atlas X-29, the Lionel X-31, the Weaver B&O round roof and Milwaukee Road rib side box cars and the MTH and Atlas 1937 AAR 40 foot box cars are also appropriate for the entire 1941-1959 period.

For the post WW II era the Lionel, MTH and Weaver PS-1s and Atlas trainman 40 foot cars are appropriate although increased attention should be paid to decoration if you want to avoid 1960s paint schemes.

For 50 foot box cars the Atlas Trainman single sheathed and the MTH and Pecos River automobile box cars fit the entire Big Boy era.  The Lionel automobile box car and the Atlas and MTH 50 foot PS-1s fit the Post WW II period.  Again, attention to decoration is needed to avoid 1960s or later paint schemes.

Atlas, Lionel and MTH all make detailed models of 40 foot steel reefers.  The Atlas model is appropriate for the entire Big Boy era.  The Lionel and MTH models fit from about 1945 and after.  Atlas and K-Line by Lionel 40 foot wood side reefers are also possibilities.  Be aware that 40 foot ice bunker reefers are about the size of USRA box cars and much smaller than later box cars like the 1937 AAR or PS-1 designs.

For a caboose you have your choice of the MTH CA-1 or Lionel CA-3/CA-4.  Both are excellent models.  The UP gave their cabooses four digit numbers for all of the Big Boy era and began painting their cabooses yellow in 1947. 

For information on other types of freight cars appropriate for the Big Boy era take a look at the O Scale Freight Car Guide. 

https://ogrforum.com/t...le-freight-car-guide

Intermountain and Red Caboose Kit cars, Weaver and AtlasO are 1/4 or "O' Scale. Though the late 1950's boxcars were a mix of 40, 50, and 70 ton with Bettendorf journal bearing(brass and waste lubrication) trucks. 100 ton cars and journal bearing trucks generally did not become the norm until the early to mid 1960's. A 40' "O" scale boxcar measures 10 inches, calculation is as follows, actual length divided by 1/4 yields the length of the "O" Scale carbody length, the actual width divided by 1/4 yields the "O" scale carbody width and the actual height divided by 1/4 yields the "O" scale carbody height. Given a "O' Scale or three rail car, multiply the tape measured length, width and height by 4 and this will yield dimensions of an actual car in feet. Also boxcars through the 1950's and early 1960's were either wood with steel partial framing or all steel.
Around mid year 1973, AAR design requirements changed and the life of the car from built date was 50 years, prior to the change the life of the car was 40 years from built date, If you had a car built prior to 1973 and wanted an additional 10 year useful life ARR Rule 88 design calculations had to be submitted to the AAR based on the built design and material properties to confirm that the existing design stresses met or exceed the new design requirements in effect by mid year 1973. Deficiencies had to be noted and plan of corrective action to upgrade the car structure to current standards had to included with this submittal. Referring back to the question of a scale to non scale carbody, the same process can be applied to; gondola, flat, refrigerator,coal and hopper cars.

I found this reference on Wikipedia:

"Top icing is the practice of placing a 2-inch (51 mm) to 4-inch (100 mm) layer of crushed ice on top of agricultural products that have high respiration rates, need high relative humidity, and benefit from having the cooling agent sit directly atop the load (or within individual boxes). Cars with pre-cooled fresh produce were top iced just before shipment. Top icing added considerable dead weight to the load. Top-icing a 40-foot (12 m) reefer required in excess of 10,000 pounds (4,500 Kg) of ice. It had been postulated that as the ice melts, the resulting chilled water would trickle down through the load to continue the cooling process. It was found, however, that top-icing only benefited the uppermost layers of the cargo, and that the water from the melting ice often passed through spaces between the cartons and pallets with little or no cooling effect. It was ultimately determined that top-icing is useful only in preventing an increase in temperature, and was eventually discontinued."

As stated above, at least some of the cars were 40 feet long, or (40*12/48 = ) 10 inches long in 1/48 scale, as are the MTH and K-Line PFE cars I have.

Alex

Chris,

Check out this PFE reefer at www.sdrm.org , click roster, click freight car picture, then click reefer PFE56415, I believe that this web site will answer your question. 

John