Bill Lenior's Saginaw PRR steam engines

Carey    Thanks for showing those to us. So the second boiler isn't the E6?  I have a pic of Bill Lenior's E6 some where in a mag 1/48 O scale news I think?       cTr... ( Choose the Right )

Marvelous. Is there any way to date your particular engine(s)?

Thanks yet again for showing us your stuff. 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Yes! Great thread!  In the olden days Carey could walk down to the corner foundry and produce these things.  No more - foundries now want to know how many, as in thousands.

Those are pristine models.  I would love to see broadside shots.  Is that a Blum M1 in the background? A John Fisher build?

Carey, I really enjoy our postings of them true gems.  It reminds of a time when my model railroading was a lot more fun.  Hard work, some skills, and simple DC to operate a railroad empire.  These locomotives are just wonderful.  How common are these on the market and do they command top dollar?  Not in the business of buying more trains for a little while, but a PRR H10/9 is certainly on the list.

Carey,

  Once again, very nice finds. Sadly no switchers!

Tom

Hi Jonathan

I find Saginaw and CLW PRR H10 2-8-0's showing up at local shows and on eBay rather frequently - and reasonable price points.  As these were kit built models price varies with the quality of the build.   The CLW version of the H10 kit evolved over time and by my recollection there were at least 3 variants of drivers in the kits.   The earliest being cast metal like the original Saginaw drivers.  Bob Smith later upgraded the kit using nicely detailed lost wax cast driver centers with steel tires.  The final version had drivers cast in an industrial plastic .  These can be spotted on a painted model by the electrical pickups on the back side of the drivers.  In later years CLW steam locomotives came with enclosed gear boxes on the main driver.    Tender bodies also changed over time.  The early Saginaw and CLW tender bodies were cast metal with integral PRR Lines west coal bunker extensions.  In later years CLW offered photo etched brass tender  body kits in both high side Lines West and low side Lines East versions.  The Lines West version coal boards extensions were lost wax castings.   To my knowledge CLW didn't offer an H9 kit.  A faithful model of an PRR H9 would have circular snifter valves on the steam delivery pipes.

That's a good point: these old models, I guess, are often only as good as the original builder could manage.

Great stuff, this. 👍

Mark in Oregon

Hello all thank you for your kind words .

Bill Lenoir knew exactly what he was doing choosing these engines ...the O scale market was awash with K4's , Hudson's , and B6'a......   what it needed was a nice every day  steamer to pull freight ... on a small layout ...  the H10 filled the bill ...  if you read the many stories  in the magazines about the various home layouts ..." I have a passenger engine  , switcher and looking for a small freight engine .."

Most/ many  home layouts had 48" radius ..or smaller ..  so Bill was able to target the market ...timing with WW2  not so good ...  post war   Varney was able to again catch the wave desire for a small steamer with it's 460....  but  reality the O scale market is ( very) small compared to the bursting HO market .... so Gordon dumped O for HO ...and never looked back.

Yes the M1 is a Blumm ....or the 3rd MiLoco engine ..cast aluminum 17/64ths ...

see link for video action

https://youtu.be/AiFtTu6j_Ps

Cheers Carey

... awesome...! 👍

Mark in Oregon

Carey, do you have the patterns for te G5 and E6 chassis as well?  That sure looks like the E6 boiler pattern up top....  Very very cool!

Dennis, if you find a foundry willing to work with us . . .

Sorry the only patterns I have are what are in the photos what you see is what there is.

You never know, here in the midwest, might still be able to find one willing to do the work.  I know it's been 20 years since I last talked to one, but we used to get small runs of castings done every semester when I was running the MET lab a Purdue Calumet up in Hammond.

What would we need besides what is there for the boiler castings?  I see the wood core forms for the middle but I would think that might jsut be one step of the overall core and casting process.  The drivers and sideframes look good though...

This little foundry is in PA, not close to us, but they are out there...

https://goodsstores.com/blogs/...-uTnP8BvRrYbYNzEPxLE

Here is another, this one in Indiana, making small runs doing plaques and stuff like that,  I'm guessing this owuld be perfect for them pending cost lmao...

http://www.crosbiefoundry.com/links.html

Im sure I saw a G5 boiler casting on the Bay a few days ago, no frame or other parts. It looked as if someone tried to grind out the fire box and went to far. The G5 has only one window on the cab, and fire box is different, so I Think Carey your patern is the E6. I would love to get me a Saginaw E6, currently working on the H10 that arrived recently, took six weeks to get to Aussy Land air mail.    cTr....( Choose the Right )

Saginaw engines are definitely out there seek and ye shall find.......

E6 seems to be the hardest to find ...

But that said after I found my first a second and third arrived shortly thereafter so they are out there

Unfortunately all the way from Australia, Ebay is my only soars, couldn't find anything before ebay, my wife introduced me to it, and a whole new world opened up.      cTr.....( Choose the Right )

@Stephen Bloy posted:

Unfortunately all the way from Australia, Ebay is my only soars, couldn't find anything before ebay, my wife introduced me to it, and a whole new world opened up.      cTr.....( Choose the Right )

I was bidding on it and did not go high enough.... kicking myself lol.  I think I have three of the H-10's and another shell for one now...my problem is I am not always looking deeply so tend to sometimes miss stuff when it does go on the block.  Just have to be patient I guess lol. btw that shell with dents int he fire box went for $46 I think.  No cylinders, no frame but did have the boiler front and running boards...... Conversely, I was able to win a Weaver G5 shell with bent cab corners for all of the $5 opening bid a few months ago....  That I did not expect. I figure I could cut it down and shorten it up a tad like I did my Williams K4 and build a frame for it.  Only challenge is I don't have any 68" drivers! I do have a bunch of 80" ones and some smaller castings, but those middle sizes don't come up as often! Def planning on putting a set of the Baldwins on one of my SC K4's and these Baldwins are a tad more than 1-3/4" so would be dandy for 17/64's and think.

I love learning about this early stuff.

I too really enjoy collecting Saginaw models.  Here are a few of mine.  First up, I converted an H-10 boiler to fit a Saginaw E6 frame.  Strangely, the boiler had to be lengthened.  Note the more rounded sand dome - only a feature of the first few E6 locomotives.  Drivers are Lobaugh, and sprung, since the Saginaw frame had been drilled crooked.  Coach is Walthers.

Next a true Saginaw E6 I acquired from the Max Schwanda estate.  This one is completely stock:

And finally, a G5 - the story on this one is that my brother 2-railed it for a hobby shop, then the customer refused it because it lacked valve gear, and the shop called me and said I could have it if I reimbursed them for what they paid my brother.  It needs a new firebox and a new motor, but I have not had the heart or incentive to rescue it from its pre-war countenance:

That's it, unless you would like to again see all my H10s.  I have several of each version, except for the brass-drivered early CLW.

By the way, I have a brand new boiler and cab casting set for the G5, and am anxiously awaiting finding a genuine G5 Saginaw frame.  I could have the whole thing assembled and running in a month!  I will pull the E6 off the shelf in a minute and see if it, too, has a sheet metal firebox.

I want to see a close up of the E6 and G5 frames lol I also would like to know if the cylinder castings are different or not due to the different height of the boiler over the chassis (or are they all the same). On the other hand, I got this Lionel E6 shell with boiler front a while back for a few pennies.  It's the same one they use for the current Legacy E6's and I think is the right length so maybe I should just make a frame for it lol since I am not likely to find any Saginaw E6 parts quickly

The final MR Saginaw pre-war advertisement, placed just before Pearl Harbor, said a K4 was the next model under development to be produced.

This is from the back page of the March 1941 MR. Note the comments stating the G5 and E6 are just about ready. Must not have made many of those two before the hostilities intervened.

I would have to disassemble to get you photos of the G5 and E6 main frames.  I have a bare H10 frame, and can contrast it with the Berkshire frame done in roughly the same manner.  I think I may have posted photos of the H10 frame somewhere.  These things are exquisitely done, and you simply cannot find similar stuff in O Scale except for imports.  Even then, spring hangers and linkages are only modeled on very high end steam.

I have an early H10 frame, so sounds like the other two are very similar then?

I love this!

Yes.  Only the wheelbase was different.  Here’s my H10 frame:

@Dennis Holler posted:

I have an early H10 frame, so sounds like the other two are very similar then?

Jeez...so the original purchaser had to drill the holes for the axles!?! Gosh, those "old timers" had to have been machinists... 😳👍

Mark in Oregon

Dennis   The K4 should should look great with the Baldwin drivers, and along hall tenderI seen a picture of this set up out there on the net, looked nice. The K4 by Saginaw Im sure would have been a Gem. The G5 boiler on the bay, unfortunately was the wrong half of the story for Bob's needs.    cTr......( Choose the Right )

I have two Adams Berkshire boilers, one yet to be worked on, and a spare Scale Craft hudson frame and drivers. I was thinking I would marry the two for a C&O Hudson, just need the C&O cylinders. Has any one tried this??      cTr....9 Choose the Right )

@Stephen Bloy posted:

I have two Adams Berkshire boilers, one yet to be worked on, and a spare Scale Craft hudson frame and drivers. I was thinking I would marry the two for a C&O Hudson, just need the C&O cylinders. Has any one tried this??      cTr....9 Choose the Right )

There was a bronze SC Hudson boiler listed a few weeks back and it went for like $29 or something. I’ve been thinking about making a PRR M1 boiler to fit on a SC Mountain chassis for a while.

@bob2 posted:

Yes.  Only the wheelbase was different.  Here’s my H10 frame:

Those axle holes don’t look so great either! Are they equally spaced and that makes them off center on the axle boxes or are they just that far out?

Don't know.  The H10 has uneven spacing, but there is no guarantee on these holes.  That's why I had to "spring" the E6.

Never thought of the Hudson idea - will check my C&O book.  Dimensionally it should work.  Make your own cylinder block?  Or wait for Mr. Poplar to find one?

Working on my Saginaw H-10 she's missing some valve gear so, this is my attempt so far.     cTr...( Choose the Right )

I once created a cab step for one of my steam switchers from copper and JB Weld. I salute anyone who tries to make their own replacement rods/valve gear.

Tom

Those look nice, but be aware that CLW still sells those parts.

Thanks Bob, did not realize CLW was operating, will have to cheque that out.        cTr...( Choose the Right )