Brand new MTH Premier Challenger losing signal?

Rick,

I know you said you checked the drawbar, however, I'd encourage you to recheck it. If the problem occurs only with this engine then the engine is almost certainly the issue.

The drawbar should seat all the way into the socket on the tender. You should be able to feel it snap into place.

Also, check the drawbar connection at the engine end of the drawbar, as well. If it's not the drawbar, it could be a bad solder joint on one or more of the connecting pins inside the engine's or the tender's drawbar socket.

Thanks Barry! I'll revisit the drawbar again this afternoon and see if I can spot anything out of the ordinary.

I had a similar problem with a brand new big boy. After running all tests with the drawbar, I was told that the dcs switch was defective. It was an easy fix, via a trained MTH tech. And although not an expensive fix, it was covered under warranty, non-the-less.

If Barry's advise doesn't work I would send it to an authorized repair center.

Rod Miller

Thanks for the replies guys! I took the tender/drawbar apart from the locomotive and put it back together very carefully and so far no more dropping issues. Fingers crossed!!

I purchased a brand new Challenger exactly like the one in your photographs. I too am having problems with loosing the engine and when the engine does run, it hesitates, jerks and eventually goes dead. I've checked the drawbar, both ends, and all seems fine. An MTH tech told that there could be a problem, similar to my Big Boy issue, where the DCS/DCC switch is messing things up. I'll be taking the engine to a qualified MTH tech, but in the mean time, can you, or anyone, offer any advice? I really love these MTH engines, but I feel as you do about spending 1500 dollars and things not working well from the get go. Thanks in advance for any thoughts or suggestions you or others may have.

Hey Biglou!! I feel your pain brother!! I hate to tell you this but.....my drawbar was my problem. I took the loco and tender back apart and meticulously put them back together making sure I got the drawbar COMPLETELY pushed together and my problems went away. Hope this helps my friend. Good luck getting yours going!!

Rick

Hey Rick, thanks so much for such a quick and thoughtful response to my question. Yes, I'm hoping that it's just a faulty drawbar, similar to your problem. I did take my current drawbar apart, as you did, and it seemed to help for just a short while, and then it went back to the jerking and stalling issues. If it's just the purchase of a new drawbar, which is under warranty, I'll consider myself very lucky. It's really a beautiful model. I can hardly wait until it runs well.

All the best to you, Lou

Biglou, mine never exhibited jerking or erratic running......it always ran extremely smooth. Mine would just lose communication with the handheld remote and my DCS wi-fi. The only way I could remedy it was to completely power down everything and power it all back up.

Rick

Hi again Rick. It's why I believe that it could be the DCS/DCC switch. It was an easy bypassed wire when the MTH tech fixed the Big Boy that displayed similar behavior, but a tech told me that this new Challenger may not offer the same bypass solution. I'm not sure why, but if anyone else has been having the same problems, I think we'll find out through this forum, sometime in the near future.

Again, thank you very much for your information. Good luck with your Challenger, It's really cool looking. Best, Lou

MTH needs to get rid of that drawbar as it seems the most common impediment to the full enjoyment of their steam locomotives.

It's beginning to appear that you might be correct about the drawbar issues. I've had nothing but great success with all my MTH diesel engines. I'm hoping to get this most-recent problem resolved though, the MTH steamers are terrific looking and when running well, there's no better. I checked out your blog, great stuff!

Maybe MTH needs to double check their manufacturers quality.

When I first received the engine and oiled it up everything was ok.

I recently bought a ES44 mth 30 2031 evolution  and it started running in a jerky motion every now and then, suddenly stopped altogether, with only 60 minutes of run time.  I checked the rollers & both were out of the cradles snapped back in now , everything is good. 

As per an excellent MTH tech's advice, before taking the engine to him, he suggested that I try another drawbar. I had purchased a 45mm drawbar from MTH last month and, although the Challenger drawbar is 40mm, the 45mm drawbar worked just fine. The engine ran great at all speeds, very slow to pretty fast. I also tried many of the various smoke, steaming whistle, doppler effects, etc., and all worked great. This is a temporary fix, in that the MTH tech ordered the proper size drawbar and will do the final install and check out the engine and the temporary work that I did. So it looks like all the responders to Rick's original post are correct, it is a drawbar issue. Thanks to Rick and all for guiding me along. Best, Lou

Lou,

One thing that I've seen on my PS3 RailKing Imperial Big Boy is that the drawbar, for whatever reason, develops a crack in the female end that connects to the tender. This causes the drawbar to fail to stay tightly connected to the tender's male connector and loosen, which can cause issues over time.

AWESOME news Lou!! So great to be a part of such a fine group of modelers!! Glad we were all able to help you!!

Rick

Thank you Rick and Barry. The drawbar seems like such a delicate part that I'm amazed that it holds up as well as it does, considering that it gets a bit jostled around behind some of the larger steam engines. Barry, I do believe that there is a very-small crack in my original drawbar, at the tender end–though It's pretty difficult to see. All things considered, overall I've had very little trouble with my steam engines.

I'm very-much in debt to the many MTH techs who have guided me/us through, what seems like, monumental problems, and turn them into simple solutions. This hobby would not be possible without you guys. I'm sure that MTH knows this, but it's always worth mentioning.

I'm currently, and maniacally, running trains right now. All with great working drawbars. Have a great evening. Lou

Jushavnfun, on your pick-up roller issue, if this happens again, there is a place on your layout, probably in a curve, where the pick-up rollers had dropped off to the side of the center rail and then when the tracks straightened out, were forced to try to climb back on. Sometime when we climbing around on our layouts to reach things, we can bend the center rail off center of a section of track. Another place pick-ups get damaged is when the engine is forced down into its Styrofoam mold when being packaged. 

Good to know Dave. Thank you

I have a Railking Imperial Challenger proto 3 that drops out of signal also.  I can run the engine around the double loop ,about 70 feet with speeds up to smph of 65 with no problems while going over two crossover bridges . I have  a few 31 curves with 42s , 54s and 72s.  None of my many MTH diesels nor steamers have any issues amazingly. 

The Challenger droping out of signal happens when I use the chuff rocker on the DCS to increase the sound and smoke . It seems to be the only time that this happens.

I have been using a locking device on the drawbar at the tender connection.  I came across it when I purchased an MTH proto3 Pennsy Pacific steamer and I made my own for the other steamers. It's a square shaped plastic piece that fits tightly to the tender tang. It works well , similar to the idea one forum member mentioned about using a piece of plastic tubing.

I've gone over this engine several times with no luck. Does this Railking model have the same problems that the Premier Challenger has with the DCS switch ?

You probably should start your own thread on a new issue.

Your symptoms suggest something other than a dropped signal.  When you increase the smoke and volume, you also increase the current draw, I'd be checking all the connections from the rollers all the way to the board through the tether to make sure there's nothing amiss there.

What EXACTLY are the symptoms you see when you use the labor?

Symptoms that occur shortly after using the labor on the remote are loss of any communication  between the remote and engine.    If the engine is moving at 35 smh and I lose control while using the horn button for instance , the engine stays at that speed with a constant horn blaring . If I have the headlight turned off when this happens I am not able to turn it on.  No response from any selection on the remote not even shutdown.  Shutting down power to the track for about half a minute or so and bringing power back will let me do the normal start up and the Challenger will have excellent response to the remote until I use the labor selection.

I'm going to use your suggestions and I'll even switch out the drawbar with one of my others.  Like having a hobby ( obsession  ? )  that offers a challenge.

I should probably leave my finger off the labor selection.

have you run a signal test while running the ps3 engine around the layout should be close to all 10's  if signal is bouncing all over the place let us  know what your actual signal is!

Put a light bulb on your TIU!!!!It’s an old remedy,but who knows??It might just work

• ALAN..... I am having all 10s on the signal. The voltage all around The double loop however does vary between 17.8 and 18.3 according to the remote.  There does seem to be one general area where the Challenger goes to " OUT OF RF RANGE " when doing the signal testing and when I check on its function I have no control with the remote. In the past I only noticed the loss of control when using the labor with smoke. Not sure why it does this while signal testing. At the same time I am running a lash up of two premium Gp30s and a Railking Gp7 all ps3 on the opposite part of the double 70 foot loop. 
• No indication of any problem with the lash up.  Seems to be something particular to the Challenger. I still have to open it up and try the gunrunner 's suggestions yet with the full continuity checks.
• KENNY......I don't have a light bulb on the TIU . Does having 6 lockons on the track with lit bulbs qualify ?   If not ,what voltage do you suggest for the TIU ?
• I  have the TIU 8 inches from the track using the daisy wire method and using the double wire from indoor extension cords.  In the past I operated other locomotives having no issues from about 20 feet with the remote .🤔

I joined this forum today to reply to this issue.

At the beginning of July, I purchased a Railking challenger. It has the same problem of losing signal. I returned it to the merchant and they sent me another one. This one also has the same problem. Yesterday, I talked to MTH service and they are having me ship it to them for repair. We'll see if they can fix it.

I think it is either an electronics issue or a design flaw. I don't think it is a drawbar issue. When it fails, simply dropping track power and starting again restored functionality without touching the engine at all. I would think a drawbar short would only be resolved by touching it or wiggling it.

I'm using a simply loop of fastrack with 036 curves, a Z1000 power source and a DCS TIU with wifi.  I have 4 other engines that run on the same test track flawlessly.  It runs fine in conventional AC mode but fails in both the fixed and variable TIU configurations. Track voltage runs betweed 17.8 and 18.2 volts and track signal is consistently a 10 all the way around.  If it happens to fail during a signal test, it says "request failure"

Please post any further developments on this issue.

Thanks,

-fred

Engine came back from MTH service. They replaced the wiring harness on the engine side but couldn't find anything else wrong.

The only difference between this engine and my other ones is that it is much heavier and longer. I'm wondering if it is either flexing my track on the carpet due to its weight OR it really can't negotiate 036 track. ????

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

SCARFGUY  .... I have to go along with Barry and some others on the drawbar issue.  

After considerable work on my " MIRACLE " RK proto 3 Challenger I think the worse thing with the drawbar seems to be at the tender.   If you even run the thing on perfectly smooth and even track with multiple cars and you start and stop it the post at the tender flexes forward and back at an angle ( or you could say up and down ) probably for any track that might not be perfectly level.  Good idea by MTH.....but the drawbar tries to remain level. You can actually watch the flexing at the female and male connection at the tender.  Failure of the connection can occur there in different ways and can cause mystery problems. My big C quit getting the signal after using smoke with the labor/chuff button.  After several occurrences the big C did nothing when the power was applied to the tracks but take off on it's own with no lights , sound or anything except the desire to plow into anything in its path .  Never to return to normal even after using conventional , DCS Explorer or Remote Commander.............until dummy me went to lift it of of the track with the power on and  ...boom ....The largest blue flash I ever saw on my test track.   Burn on the center rail and burn on the tender drawbar post.  Curiosity got me.....last chance Big C...put it back on the DCS layout.......Miracle !!! ???  Everything on the big C works like new except the smoke fan. I'm not even going to pretend I know why it runs again.  I replaced the fan motor and nothing .......Good enough. 

Since the thing runs now I installed a center pickup on the tender.  I've been talking to another modeler and we thought some kind of bar like the proto 2 model might work and a separate wire harness more like the somewhat straight one on the Railking E8s not the curlycue proto 2 steamers type.  

 Godspeed

U

I'm now using a small sink washer on the tender post. It's a temporary fix, but works fine. Though I do have to adjust it after several laps around the layout. I'll probably use a heat shrink tube, some day, to see if it will work as a more permanent fix. The challenger engine is really great looking and when working well, it's a lot of fun to watch. Good luck with your engine Scarfguy.

HEY BIGLOU.......

Glad you liked the post on the tender /drawbar issue.

Sometime ago I purchased a Railking Tuscan PRR K4 and inside the box I found this interesting little square piece with a square hole in it.  When going to the owners manual I saw instructions on how to put it on the tender post with the little white dot facing up.. Never had one of these in  any of my steamer purchases nor since.

I made my own out of some hard plastic that was used to insulate the center rail pickup on the MTH engines . They fit tight but still doesn't change the flexing female /male at the tender post.

I'm still looking for six wires and male and female connectors that I can shrink wrap or vinyl tubing to cover the wires.  I still like

the arraignment on the Railking E8 diesels.

.Godspeed BIGLOU

Dallas Joseph posted:

 Everything on the big C works like new except the smoke fan. I'm not even going to pretend I know why it runs again.  I replaced the fan motor and nothing .......Good enough. 

 

The smoke fan motor FET can be replaced, or simply replacing the boiler PCB will fix it.  Those are the low cost boards, so not like losing the tender board.

Biglou posted:

I'm now using a small sink washer on the tender post. It's a temporary fix, but works fine.

MTH came up with a slip-on plastic collar for the tender post to keep the drawbar seated.

FB-0000037 Wireless Drawbar Retainer

Sadly, it doesn't appear on the retail parts site, it comes up as unknown.  However, I managed to order them through the dealer portal.

John, and yet again, thank you for the information on the slip-on plastic collar for the tender post. I'll try to track a few of these down. I need them for the challenger and for a couple of bigboys that have the same problem. Best, Lou

John, I could not run down the color part on ebay or anywhere else. So I emailed Midge at MTH to see if she might be able to help out. She's terrific at getting answers. In the mean time, my washer solution is working just fine; easy to remove when working on the engines, however, the washer performance is not good as heat shrink wrapping. 

Midge and Debbie came through with flying colors. Three collars for three engines. I'm looking forward to seeing them at work. Thanks all...

Really great that you found the collars.  I never knew they existed before the one came with that K4.

It's all thanks to gunrunner John. I'm happy that you started all this, Scarfguy. Can't wait to see how they work. Best, Lou

HEY  GUNRUNNERJOHN.......

.......FET  ?  Hat does it stand for and where can the parts be obtained ? .......sorry about my ignorance .    Electronics is fun but a few years after I helped my brother wire a large new addition to this guys house it burned to the ground.  I never tried to find out what the cause was. 🤔😁

I  did like the smoke feature on the big C.  After it lost signal when I used the labor chuff button originally and it eventually went down I didn't know what was happening to it.

I appreciated your original advice and I might venture back into the boiler to see about connections also.   ........just kind of scared to get it smoking again.😊

HeHe, Dallas,  guess if you get it smokin' again, you'll wonder if its smokin' cause it's spose to or

you set your electronics on fire.

Dallas Joseph posted:

HEY  GUNRUNNERJOHN.......

.......FET  ?  Hat does it stand for and where can the parts be obtained ? .......sorry about my ignorance .    Electronics is fun but a few years after I helped my brother wire a large new addition to this guys house it burned to the ground.  I never tried to find out what the cause was. 🤔😁

Hmm... Given your house experience, I don't know that I want to teach you to meddle with the PS/3 board.

The smoke fan FET (Field Effect Transistor) is Q87(NTJD4105CT1G) on the boiler PCB.

The smoke heater FET is Q169(SI2318DS-T1-E3) on the boiler PCB. 

Obviously, these are surface mount parts, so the proper technique for removal and replacement will be key.  If you aren't comfortable working with tiny surface mount parts, this is probably not a job for you.

Best is probably to pick up a new AE-1000E32 Boiler board for the engine, it comes with all the FET's alive and well.