Brass or Metal Locomotives

Brass is a metal.... I assume you mean is Brass better than using cast zinc alloy?  Casting allows for mass production and great detail  in one or a few pieces.  Hence it can be much cheaper.

The manufacturers figured out zinc metal is cheaper to cast than to make engines out of brass.  The zinc pests figured out they like to eat it too!

Charlie

Diecast and injection molded models are very conducive to mass production - 1000s of pieces.    Brass is generally manually assembled in small lots with a variety of detail.   It is much easier and cheaper to make small runs of a 100 or so models.

I once asked bowser who makes many plastic detailed injected molded models, if they would do an O scale model.   The answer that came back was "send a check for &75,000.00, and we will".     This was about 20 years ago when they came out with some Pennsy models I wanted in O scale.    I'm sure the cost of tooling has gone up considerably since then like everything else.

Diecast and Injection molding requires a large investment in tooling.     It is not conducive to making one piece.

A brass model in generally done with a few relatively inexpensive manual jigs and fixtures. 

Modern injection molded models have super detail.    But there is generally not much variety - ie the same car painted in 15-20 paint schemes without changing prototypical details.   

"I am curious as I've heard different things on the subject".

Different as in one is better than the other? 

I rather have a brass model any day... but Die cast models in their abundancies seem to be more economical. 

The Hybrid is pure genius in my opinion … you just have to pick and market test the right engine to build...

Now where is my NYC K5b? 

Modern injected molded cars such as Atlas Master LIne, are in better detailed than many brass models.    The very high end brass coming in now has very good detail.    But the old USHobbies, NJCB, and Max Grey brass cars are not nearly as detailed.     On the other hand, there are brass models of unique prototypes that have not been made in diecast or Plastic probably because they are unique and of not enough interest to enough modelers to justify the cost of detailed plastic.    

Brass generally has the advantage of being sturdier than plastic and more detailed than diecast.   

Diecast by its very name implies lower detail.   When you cast detail such as piping, steps, bells, lights, grab irons etc onto the model body. they are not as detailed.    But they are very sturdy.   

As a modeler, I am interested in a particular prototype, so any model of other prototypes is of interest for me to look at but not to buy.    So yes, a manufacture must do some research and select a model that will command a large enough prototype.

An example of testing the market was the recent announcement of an SD40-2 by Sunset 3rd Rail.    There was a lot of requests for the model apparently, so they announced it open for reservations.   It turns out that the interest then disappeared.    There were not enough reservations in over a year to make the model and the project was cancelled.  

J Daddy posted:

"I am curious as I've heard different things on the subject".

Different as in one is better than the other? 

I rather have a brass model any day... but Die cast models in their abundancies seem to be more economical. 

The Hybrid is pure genius in my opinion … you just have to pick and market test the right engine to build...

Now where is my NYC K5b? 

I doubt you will see a hybrid version of this engine. The smoke box is considerably larger than any of the USRA or similar diecast pacifics made so far meaning a new steam chest would have to be created to fit the smokebox. 

At this point someone will have to create a completely new model either all brass or all diecast. Neither MTH nor Lionel seems willing to make new models.

Pete

Pete and I discussed this model in length some time ago, and I came up with this model. Created from a MTH Comet. ....it’s as close as I can come to a K5...but if I had a choice, brass would be my first choice. Nothing wrong with the diecast. And brass hybrids seem to be the best of both worlds........Pat

Looking good Pat! There is a host of Brass Hybrids that are waiting to be done... Every York I buy Ryan a beer and we talk about what would sell... I am still looking for a class Z8 NP Challenger

J Daddy posted:

Looking good Pat! There is a host of Brass Hybrids that are waiting to be done... Every York I buy Ryan a beer and we talk about what would sell... I am still looking for a class Z8 NP Challenger

J Daddy.....Pete had started on a home made brass hybrid of a sunset brass K5, that’s what got me wanting one....I think he ran into problems with the steam chest fitting the smoke box.....that model he was working on would be the ultimate 3 rail K5.......and a lot more accurate than mine!.....I have to click my heels three times when I light a fire in my model...........Pat

Thanks everyone......I appreciate your help!

One option is diecast with lots of added detail.  If you look at Lionel's Vision Line stuff, there's lots of added detail, but the basic shell is diecast.

Heck, that was the way of HO scalers "back in the day"...when we used to have to actually build stuff... 

Like this:

Mark in Oregon

Skipping the issue of 'zinc pest' a big part of the discussion should relate to durability.  Brass is nice but it is fragile.  Would is let a five year old handle your brass engine?  As a matter of fact would a brass engine survived your childhood?  Given all the things I put my engines through as a 10-12 year old I probably would have nothing left.

MTH has reached an acceptable middle ground with their engines.

Norton posted:

J Daddy posted:

"I am curious as I've heard different things on the subject".

Different as in one is better than the other? 

I rather have a brass model any day... but Die cast models in their abundancies seem to be more economical. 

The Hybrid is pure genius in my opinion … you just have to pick and market test the right engine to build...

Now where is my NYC K5b? 

I doubt you will see a hybrid version of this engine. The smoke box is considerably larger than any of the USRA or similar diecast pacifics made so far meaning a new steam chest would have to be created to fit the smokebox. 

At this point someone will have to create a completely new model either all brass or all diecast. Neither MTH nor Lionel seems willing to make new models.

Pete

 

First of all, JDaddy, you can't have your K-5 until I get mine! If they build it, I will come. With my checkbook.

Second, while I see Pete's point, a new steam chest (modified existing tooling? A couple of guys with Moto-Tools working on existing parts? They should be able to clearance all needed in a week... Heck - we used to make things.) should not be a make-or-break, here.

(Fortunately for me, I found a complete Sunset NYC K-5 boiler/cab on eBay in the last year or two, and, you know what? If you take that boiler and an old brass Williams Samhongsa Southern Rwy Ps-4 Pacific running chassis (they have Walschaerts valve gear), a Commonwealth pilot, a Delta trailing truck and an appropriate/modified tender, well, there you go. The basic dimensions seem to work. Some finessing - like that long pilot truck 031-curve-friendly wheelbase. I'm all about compromise, anyway. Just food for thought. Got to get my workshop back up and running.)  

D, FYI,  I tried mine on a MTH USRA Pacific. Driver spacing, leading and trailing trucks, overall length were almost spot on. As the K5 has a round boiler some carving was required to clear the gearbox. It wasn't until I set the shell on the MTH frame that the steam chest issue came up.

Maybe a steamchest from a Hudson or Niagara would be a better fit but you would have to remove too much metal from the one on this Pacific. The smokebox would be sitting directly on the cylinders.

Pete

As far has handling goes, there are scale models not footballs

Bill DeBrooke posted:

MTH has reached an acceptable middle ground with their engines.

I think you are exactly correct - and it has been true for at least twenty years.

MELGAR