Buy tiu now or wait?

Wait for what? If you want it buy it now, there won't be an updated version coming anytime in the foreseeable future.

Genoz posted:

this is a new hobby for me. I appreciate all the info I have read on this site and am now getting ready to set up my track. I am asking for opinions if I should wait to buy the dcs system now or if a more modern one is coming this year. I would like wifi operation. Thanks in advance.  recently If you only run MTH DCS equipment, go ahead. 

I recently purchased an MTH TIU and wireless interface unit (WIU). If you only run MTH DCS equipment, go ahead. This system is terrific for that purpose. No complaints.

If you run conventional trains forget it. The app's variable track voltage control is bug ridden. You will experience sudden and unexpected voltage surges and drops. Often the data stream gets lagged. The voltage gets stuck at random points and control is lost. I wouldn't recommend this system unless you have some sturdy guardrails on your layout. 

If you run Lionel TMCC, you'll need another cable from the TIU to your Legacy base. If you run Lionel Legacy, you'll need more stuff: an SER2 serial converter and yet another special cable. And after all this fuss, you will sadly discover that all Lionel TMCC and Legacy engines lose automatic RPM's using the MTH system. Everything gets stuck in manual rpm mode. On the bright side, at least the horns will quill after all the hassle  of adding this equipment.

And if you need help from MTH with this system, forget it. They are unresponsive to both emails sent through their secure website form, and to this forum. I am told that if you call on certain special days, at a certain lucky time, some have found help. Fortunately, there are some very kind and knowledgeable forum members who offer their gracious assistance in MTH's absence.

 Therefore, depending on your needs, it may be worth waiting for MTH to fix their bugs and service attitude. But don't wait for an entirely new system. I agree with the previous poster that this probably isn't coming anytime soon. 

Now.  

NOW - the firmware is updatable

Matt and Moonman, I don't think the poser is talking about the firmware but rather wondering if he should wait for the presumably simpler next generation tiu with built in dcs wifi and thus have only one piece of hardware with fewer cables or go for the present setup of two pieces of hardware - tiu and dcs wifi module with the need for extra cables to interconnect the two.

ogaugeguy posted:

Matt and Moonman, I don't think the poser is talking about the firmware but rather wondering if he should wait for the presumably simpler next generation tiu with built in dcs wifi and thus have only one piece of hardware with fewer cables or go for the present setup of two pieces of hardware - tiu and dcs wifi module with the need for extra cables to interconnect the two.

The answer is still the same - NOW - may not be here to see that happen - play now

Genoz,

To answer your question, there is no update coming to MTH hardware in the foreseeable future. There might be a new TIU sometime late next year or early 2019, however, that's just a guess on my part.

Regarding the comment above:

"And if you need help from MTH with this system, forget it. They are unresponsive to both emails sent through their secure website form, and to this forum."

The best way to contact MTH is by telephone. I have never had an instance where support over the phone was non-responsive. Further, before someone tries to make a case that I receive special support because I'm an MTH partner through my DCS Companion books, be aware that, when I have a technical question for support, I call the same phone number as does everyone else.

DCS is a fun-to-operate command control system. I've been using it since it first became available in 2002 and I've been beta testing it for 15 years or so. In that time it's come a long way and you won't go wrong by making it your command control system of choice.

I wasn't talking about firmware. Firmware is software and as a rule upgradeable.they hardware will not be changing anytime in the for sea level future if ever.

I have been running DCS for some 14 years.  I have never had any problems running conventional trains.  I have never experienced the events that are claimed in the 3rd post.  I still have my original issue TIUs, and if I insert them in my layout in place of the latest model, there is no difference at all.

In short, why wait?  The TIU and the handheld remote are well debugged.

ogaugeguy posted:

Matt and Moonman, I don't think the poser is talking about the firmware but rather wondering if he should wait for the presumably simpler next generation tiu with built in dcs wifi and thus have only one piece of hardware with fewer cables or go for the present setup of two pieces of hardware - tiu and dcs wifi module with the need for extra cables to interconnect the two.

The DCS Explorer seems to be what you're describing.  This is a MUCH simpler piece of equipment that only offers one control channel and doesn't do conventional control from what I've seen so far.  It's not nearly as capable as the TIU and the WiFi unit, probably why it costs much less.

I just updated with a new MTH  command set to replace my 10 year old one.

I would recommend you purchase the newest release - REV L

The REV L will be defined by a sticker on the bottom of the TIU and have a USB port.

Dave

RJR posted:

I have been running DCS for some 14 years.  I have never had any problems running conventional trains.  I have never experienced the events that are claimed in the 3rd post.  I still have my original issue TIUs, and if I insert them in my layout in place of the latest model, there is no difference at all.

In short, why wait?  The TIU and the handheld remote are well debugged.

RJR: My post (3rd post) talks about the varied bugs which afflict the MTH wifi premium app. This app is new. It has not existed for the entirety of your 14 year claim of trouble free operation. 

Is there anyone using the MTH app for conventional and TMCC / Legacy? I would be interested in hearing from those folks. I realize all the DCS people think everything is perfect. Indeed it is for DCS.

I feel really burned by my purchase of this system as it has failed to work as specified, and MTH has been unresponsive.  I must underscore this point in light of others' rise to MTH's defence. Why exactly does MTH have a service email portal if they willfully disregard people's correspondence? And no, before you even say it- it isn't going to some spam folder innocently. It's a secure web form, so they are receiving and ignoring emails. Indefensible, even for all the apologists on this forum. Not everyone is a retiree with the ability to call MTH during some limited time window. If they hold themselves out as having a web based method of contact, they should honor it fully. No excuses, period. 

Thanks everyone, there is a lot to learn. From what I've read it sounds like buy now for the hardware. I'll let you know how it goes!

Gregr,

My post (3rd post) talks about the varied bugs which afflict the MTH wifi premium app. This app is new. It has not existed for the entirety of your 14 year claim of trouble free operation. 

You appear to be disregarding my previous statements about your claim of bugs in the DCS App as regards operating conventional trains. This is after I actually attempted to replicate the so-called "bugs" in the DCS App you described in a thread that you started a couple of weeks ago.

I found, after repeating tests several times, that the DCS App and the DCS Remote behaved identically as regards the use of the variable channels. When either device was used to vary voltage in a sane and reasonable manner, as one would when actually operating a conventional train's throttle, they performed just fine.

However, when one slides the DCS App's voltage control throttle up and down as fast as possible, or does the same with the DCS Remote's thumbwheel throttle, some voltage latency kicks in and voltage adjustment lags the throttle manipulation by up to a few seconds. This was apparent both with the DCS App and the DCS Remote. Further, my testing indicated that this behavior is in the TIU's voltage control circuit, not in the WIU or the DCS App, or in the DCS Remote. This makes sense, since the circuit that actually manages the control of voltage for variable channels is in the TIU.

The latency is most likely due to buffering of some kind, since the voltage seems to always wind up where it is supposed to be as of the last throttle adjustment.

RJR stated:

"I have been running DCS for some 14 years.  I have never had any problems running conventional trains.  I have never experienced the events that are claimed in the 3rd post."

Robert is exactly correct. The issue that you describe isn't new with the advent of the DCS App and the WIU at all, rather, it's always been simply the TIU's response to abusing the DCS variable channels.

Further, it appears that no one else on the OGR forum has reported this behavior, ever. I attempt to read every DCS-related post on the OGR forums and cannot remember ever seeing a scenario such as you describe. I can only believe that this is the case because when operating conventional trains via DCS, most do so in a reasonable manner.

I haven't seen this mentioned and it's just my opinion, but personally I would get the TIU and Remote set and I would get it now. I am not a complete Luddite, I do have the Wifi unit and the Premium app in addition to my TIU and remote, but I find I still prefer the remote to the app. However, the remote is what I started out with a few years ago so maybe it's just that old habits are hard to break and it all in what you are used to? I normally like the new technologies and new hardware items though. 

Also, if you are new to DCS I would highly recommend getting one or both of Barry's (yes the Barry posting here) books, the DCS Companion or the DCS Wifi Companion. There is lots of info and tips in those books that you will find nowhere else. And as you can see above, Barry is always here to try and help us with our DCS problems. 

Good luck and I think you will really enjoy your DCS system! Have fun with it.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Gregr,

My post (3rd post) talks about the varied bugs which afflict the MTH wifi premium app. This app is new. It has not existed for the entirety of your 14 year claim of trouble free operation. 

You appear to be disregarding my previous statements about your claim of bugs in the DCS App as regards operating conventional trains. This is after I actually attempted to replicate the so-called "bugs" in the DCS App you described in a thread that you started a couple of weeks ago.

I found, after repeating tests several times, that the DCS App and the DCS Remote behaved identically as regards the use of the variable channels. When either device was used to vary voltage in a sane and reasonable manner, as one would when actually operating a conventional train's throttle, they performed just fine.

However, when one slides the DCS App's voltage control throttle up and down as fast as possible, or does the same with the DCS Remote's thumbwheel throttle, some voltage latency kicks in and voltage adjustment lags the throttle manipulation by up to a few seconds. This was apparent both with the DCS App and the DCS Remote. Further, my testing indicated that this behavior is in the TIU's voltage control circuit, not in the WIU or the DCS App, or in the DCS Remote. This makes sense, since the circuit that actually manages the control of voltage for variable channels is in the TIU.

The latency is most likely due to buffering of some kind, since the voltage seems to always wind up where it is supposed to be as of the last throttle adjustment.

RJR stated:

"I have been running DCS for some 14 years.  I have never had any problems running conventional trains.  I have never experienced the events that are claimed in the 3rd post."

Robert is exactly correct. The issue that you describe isn't new with the advent of the DCS App and the WIU at all, rather, it's always been simply the TIU's response to abusing the DCS variable channels.

Further, it appears that no one else on the OGR forum has reported this behavior, ever. I attempt to read every DCS-related post on the OGR forums and cannot remember ever seeing a scenario such as you describe. I can only believe that this is the case because when operating conventional trains via DCS, most do so in a reasonable manner.

Barry,

Thanks for the response. With all due respect, you missed one important note in my previous posts: This bug occurs not only with rapid adjustments to voltage, but often the first time the voltage is gradually and reasonably raised. The rapid up/down adjustments indicated in a previous video were for illustrative purposes only. I do not operate trains in the erratic manner you suggested, and this problem is not caused by rapid adjustments. This system simply locks up randomly, for no reason, leaving trains to coast off, surge off or stop dead in their tracks. 

Even if the voltage control was usable, there is also the issue that the voltage, when held constant, and left alone, flickers like a campfire, up and down several volts at random. The voltage regulation and power quality objectively sucks, period. Sure, I can assign my Powermaster to be an "engine" and use that for nice smooth voltage control, but then I lose the ability to use the horn and bell. Yet, more bugs once again.

Perhaps I am the only person dealing with these bugs as you suggest. To be certain, this system is perfect in every way for those using DCS only. However, from my vantage point, I have a bug-ridden system. This whole thing is a poor conceived experiment by MTH, for which I have paid dearly with no support. The problem is poor design, not misuse.

It is also worthwhile to observe that only Lionel Legacy/TMCC engines, and those with conventional control are partially disabled by this system. MTH is motivated to sell their products, not Lionel products. Is this selective? It is not unreasonable to suggest that control of Lionel products would be deliberately "crippled" in their app, with the explicit aim of diminishing the appearance or usefulness of a competitor's product in the interest of boosting sales of their own product - a product that works perfectly with the system.

Gregr,

This bug occurs not only with rapid adjustments to voltage, but often the first time the voltage is gradually and reasonably raised.

First, it's not a "bug". Second, it did not ever occur the "first time the voltage is gradually and reasonably raised" when I played with it for almost an hour. Based on this statement, perhaps you have another issue that is confined to your layout alone.

Even if the voltage control was usable, there is also the issue that the voltage, when held constant, and left alone, flickers like a campfire, up and down several volts at random.

Again, not on my layout or on any layout of which I have heard, or of which I'm aware. Again, perhaps you have another issue that is confined to your layout alone.

Perhaps I am the only person dealing with these bugs as you suggest.

One more time: perhaps you have another issue that is confined to your layout alone.

However, from my vantage point, I have a bug-ridden system. This whole thing is a poor conceived experiment by MTH, for which I have paid dearly with no support. The problem is poor design, not misuse.

If you're not happy with DCS then I suggest that you divest yourself of the DCS system and all of your DCS engines. After all, this experiment has been going on for 15+ years and this is  the first complaint of this type ever posted.

Further, your contention that this is a "bug" that's only come along since the app came on the scene a month or two ago is invalid. Any voltage latency is in, and has always been in, the TIU. This is proven since the DCS Remote behaves exactly as does the app regarding this scenario. Additionally, as I stated earlier, only the TIU can actually affect the voltage of a variable channel.

It is also worthwhile to observe that only Lionel Legacy/TMCC engines, and those with conventional control are partially disabled by this system. MTH is motivated to sell their products, not Lionel products. Is this selective? It is not unreasonable to suggest that control of Lionel products would be deliberately "crippled" in their app, with the explicit aim of diminishing the appearance or usefulness of a competitor's product in the interest of boosting sales of their own product - a product that works perfectly with the system.

Is it reasonable to suggest that this is a conspiracy to make Lionel products look bad? Really?

I sure don't think so, since MTH is under license from Lionel Corporate Corporation to manufacture Lionel-branded tinplate trains.

Maybe it's time you stopped beating a non-bug and find out why you alone seem to be having this problem. If you need help, call MTH support on the telephone and talk to someone!

Why don't you take this argument to another thread?  This has nothing to do with the OP's topic.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Why don't you take this argument to another thread?  This has nothing to do with the OP's topic.

Good suggestion. This strayed considerably. I found an old thread dealing with my issue. Apparently, it's not just me or my layout alone having trouble.

https://ogrforum.com/...65#73509797244778565

Gregr,

https://ogrforum.com/...65#73509797244778565

That thread has nothing to do with the issue that you keep harping about. 

Regardless, I agree with John that your entire discussion of this issue is irrelevant to the Op's question. It's unfortunate that you brought it up at all.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Gregr,

https://ogrforum.com/...65#73509797244778565

That thread has nothing to do with the issue that you keep harping about. 

Regardless, I agree with John that your entire discussion of this issue is irrelevant to the Op's question. It's unfortunate that you brought it up at all.

Because there are multiple deficiencies, it is reasonable to devote separate threads to each.

The ongoing issues that I have experienced are very relevant to the OP's question "should I wait". You think the system is great. I don't. I'm ok to leave it at that and let this be my last post to this thread. Nothing personal. 

GregR posted:

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Gregr,

https://ogrforum.com/...65#73509797244778565

That thread has nothing to do with the issue that you keep harping about. 

Regardless, I agree with John that your entire discussion of this issue is irrelevant to the Op's question. It's unfortunate that you brought it up at all.

Because there are multiple deficiencies, it is reasonable to devote separate threads to each.

The ongoing issues that I have experienced are very relevant to the OP's question "should I wait". You think the system is great. I don't. I'm ok to leave it at that and let this be my last post to this thread. Nothing personal. 

Fine - then include a link to your other thread - don't hijack this one...!

I would say that now is a great time to invest in the TIU and WIU. Many of the forum sponsors have great holiday deals, and this system works very well (I operate in DCS and CONVENTIONALLY without the above noted issues). 

There will be a hardware upgrade but I wouldn't expect it to perform much better than the existing components that MTH offers now. I suspect we may see a combination of the TIU & WIU hardware, but I wouldn't wait for it. The control system MTH makes now will always accept Firmware & Software updates to allow it to evolve with anything new that comes later on.

*post edited

Summer is not train season so it is a good time to buy as you can get a discount although DCS system pricing is pretty consistent.

I have the TIU (purchased about four years ago) and WIU (just purchased) and after updating the firmware in both, they work really well and add a new dimension to the layout that my kids enjoy.  I would recommend them both.