Lionel RS5 Diesel NO Auto RPM Sounds

Did anyone ever come up with a solution for this? I have the same issue with the MTH app with TIU/WIU.

All of my Legacy locos lose their ability to automatically adjust RPM's up or down. They are simply stuck at idle RPM, with no response to throttle adjustments or increases in speed. Everything else works great however, including quilling horns and other Legacy specific features.

Here is what happens:

If I set up a Legacy engine as a TMCC diesel, RPM's work in the default, R100 and TAS speed control modes, but fail to work in TMCC 32 mode.
If I set up a Legacy engine as a Legacy diesel, RPM's always fail to work, and there is no method of changing speed control mode to fix the issue.

So, I have to give either give up Legacy features, and have RPM's, or have Legacy features, with no RPM's. Why does it have to be like this?

In Legacy mode, the locomotive only ramps RPM when it gets an absolute Legacy run level command. This command is separate and unique from Legacy absolute speed commands. (TMCC gives you a different result because in that mode, the same relative throttle up/down messages cause changes to both speed and sound.)

It would be my guess that the current MTH support for Legacy products sends absolute speed commands, but never sends absolute run level commands. On a related note, I would be interested to know if Legacy steam locomotives change their chuff laboring in the TIU/WIU environment, or if they sound at a fixed labor.

Absolute run level commands and engine laboring commands are sent from the CAB2 and also from from Apps like Lionel iCab and HighRail. Perhaps MTH will add this functionality in a future version--the commands are published in freely available Legacy command protocol document.

I wonder if the newly released WiFi Premium App works better in this regard, they did add some Legacy capability?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I wonder if the newly released WiFi Premium App works better in this regard, they did add some Legacy capability?

Actually the premium app is where the issue lies. I have a nice setup now which includes the SER2 and various cables. I am able to use all other Legacy features with the MTH app - except Automatic RPM on my diesels. I need to set up locos in the app as TMCC with either default, TAS, or R100 speed control. TMCC32 doesn't work, and setting up a Legacy diesel as a Legacy diesel, kills the RPM ramping. Hopefully, MTH will address this glitch in their next release and get the ramping commands to be issued properly in response to throttle adjustments. 

I also have a GP30 that does the same thing, but I am using a Cab-1 and TMCC base.

Chris, while I'm sure your symptoms match, if you're not using the MTH control system, the underlying issue is probably entirely different. Depending on the era your GP30 was produced, there may be an axel-activated cam switch which lets the locomotive know it is moving. When you use the 3 and 6 keys on your CAB1, do you hear the RPM ramping up and down?

Knowing the Lionel part number of your GP30 (6-xxxxx) would be helpful.

In my case, all locos work with Cab-1L and Cab-2.  RPM's only fail to ramp using the MTH app with TIU/WIU. 

Railsounds posted:

In Legacy mode, the locomotive only ramps RPM when it gets an absolute Legacy run level command. This command is separate and unique from Legacy absolute speed commands. (TMCC gives you a different result because in that mode, the same relative throttle up/down messages cause changes to both speed and sound.)

It would be my guess that the current MTH support for Legacy products sends absolute speed commands, but never sends absolute run level commands. On a related note, I would be interested to know if Legacy steam locomotives change their chuff laboring in the TIU/WIU environment, or if they sound at a fixed labor.

Absolute run level commands and engine laboring commands are sent from the CAB2 and also from from Apps like Lionel iCab and HighRail. Perhaps MTH will add this functionality in a future version--the commands are published in freely available Legacy command protocol document.

Legacy steam locomotives operated using the DCS app do change their chuff in the TIU / WIU environment. Only Legacy diesels, entered into the app as Legacy diesels, fail to ramp their RPM's using the DCS app. Your explanation of why the app is failing to trigger RPM ramping seems logical. Hopefully, the MTH app developer will pick up this correction on the next release. I sent an email to MTH about this issue and never heard back. I also tried calling and got transferred a few times before getting dead ended in someone's voicemail, never to receive a call back. If they aren't listening to me, hopefully someone has the ability to communicate with them to press this issue.

The chuff is generated in a totally different manner and is dependent on the physical speed of the motor in later Legacy and the chuff switch in TMCC and earlier Legacy.

Railsounds posted:

Chris, while I'm sure your symptoms match, if you're not using the MTH control system, the underlying issue is probably entirely different. Depending on the era your GP30 was produced, there may be an axel-activated cam switch which lets the locomotive know it is moving. When you use the 3 and 6 keys on your CAB1, do you hear the RPM ramping up and down?

Knowing the Lionel part number of your GP30 (6-xxxxx) would be helpful.

Lionel number 6-28855.

Using the keypad, the RPM will ramp up/down.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The chuff is generated in a totally different manner and is dependent on the physical speed of the motor in later Legacy and the chuff switch in TMCC and earlier Legacy.

The point I was making is a little more subtle.

I'm sure the chuffs get faster and slower, following the speed of the locomotive, when a TMCC or Legacy locomotive is operating in the TIU/WIU environment.

I'm talking about a secondary sound behavior. In Legacy, the chuff laboring command is totally independent of the speed the loco is traveling. Cab2 and iCab generate a separate labor command which causes the sonic character of the chuff to change over a wide range in a Legacy locomotive. I was asking if anyone had observed whether a Legacy steam locomotive changes its chuff laboring in the TIU/WIU environment, or if all chuffs sound at a fixed labor, regardless of speed, momentum, etc. (Those not familiar with this sound effect, try setting momentum medium and fully applying the CAB2's train brake while at speed. You'll hear the difference in chuff character, I'm sure.)

In TMCC mode, motor speed and chuff laboring are both controlled by the throttle. So this is related to GREGR's comment about Legacy Diesel having less features than TMCC in the TIU/WIU environment. The same may be true for Legacy Steam's chuff laboring feature. That's what I'm curious about.

You're right Rudy, a much more subtle point!   I bow to the sound master, you clearly have this stuff down cold.

I love the labored chuff feature, I use it all the time.  I don't know how many people have come up to me and asked how I do that.

No bowing necessary, I think I was a little unclear in what I was trying to get across. Glad you enjoy the labored chuffing!

Railsounds posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The chuff is generated in a totally different manner and is dependent on the physical speed of the motor in later Legacy and the chuff switch in TMCC and earlier Legacy.

The point I was making is a little more subtle.

I'm sure the chuffs get faster and slower, following the speed of the locomotive, when a TMCC or Legacy locomotive is operating in the TIU/WIU environment.

I'm talking about a secondary sound behavior. In Legacy, the chuff laboring command is totally independent of the speed the loco is traveling. Cab2 and iCab generate a separate labor command which causes the sonic character of the chuff to change over a wide range in a Legacy locomotive. I was asking if anyone had observed whether a Legacy steam locomotive changes its chuff laboring in the TIU/WIU environment, or if all chuffs sound at a fixed labor, regardless of speed, momentum, etc. (Those not familiar with this sound effect, try setting momentum medium and fully applying the CAB2's train brake while at speed. You'll hear the difference in chuff character, I'm sure.)

In TMCC mode, motor speed and chuff laboring are both controlled by the throttle. So this is related to GREGR's comment about Legacy Diesel having less features than TMCC in the TIU/WIU environment. The same may be true for Legacy Steam's chuff laboring feature. That's what I'm curious about.

FYI - I just tested a Legacy 10-Wheeler using the MTH iPhone app through the WIU / TIU. Within the app there is a separate control slider with 31 positions which controls "labor bias" separately from the chuff rate. You get the same effect using the EFX up and down buttons on the CAB2.

Lehigh Valley Railroad posted:

Railsounds posted:

Chris, while I'm sure your symptoms match, if you're not using the MTH control system, the underlying issue is probably entirely different. Depending on the era your GP30 was produced, there may be an axel-activated cam switch which lets the locomotive know it is moving. When you use the 3 and 6 keys on your CAB1, do you hear the RPM ramping up and down?

Knowing the Lionel part number of your GP30 (6-xxxxx) would be helpful.

Lionel number 6-28855.

 

Using the keypad, the RPM will ramp up/down.

OK, thanks. I suspect that the sound board is not getting the trigger which indicates it is moving. Do you see a plastic sort of gull-winged shaped cam attached to one of the axels? This should activate a micro-switch as the axel revolves. Perhaps the screw holding the switch has loosened and is no longer clicking. 

Railsounds posted:

Lehigh Valley Railroad posted:

Railsounds posted:

Chris, while I'm sure your symptoms match, if you're not using the MTH control system, the underlying issue is probably entirely different. Depending on the era your GP30 was produced, there may be an axel-activated cam switch which lets the locomotive know it is moving. When you use the 3 and 6 keys on your CAB1, do you hear the RPM ramping up and down?

Knowing the Lionel part number of your GP30 (6-xxxxx) would be helpful.

Lionel number 6-28855.

 

Using the keypad, the RPM will ramp up/down.

OK, thanks. I suspect that the sound board is not getting the trigger which indicates it is moving. Do you see a plastic sort of gull-winged shaped cam attached to one of the axels? This should activate a micro-switch as the axel revolves. Perhaps the screw holding the switch has loosened and is no longer clicking. 

There is nothing of that sort on this engine. I am familiar with that style I think it's called the 'Liondrive' system of what you speak.

Chris

Then I'm not sure what else to suggest, other than trying it in conventional mode and see if it ramps there. Otherwise, I'd check with Lionel Customer  Service or reach out to one of the forum folks who do this sort of repair work.

Lionel is not taking in repairs unless they are warranty, G

Liondrive is the method of mounting the motor to the twist-off trucks I think.  I don't recall them ever mentioning a name for the wheel sensor arrangement.

The 6-31735 is part of the Chessie Diesel Freight Set (TMCC GP30 #6945) SKU: 6-31735, that was released in 2005 and has RS5.  I can't believe that has an axle switch for RPM, I was under the impression that RS5 dealt with that internally.  Oddly, I don't find any parts breakdown for the locomotive under the set ID or the locomotive ID.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Liondrive is the method of mounting the motor to the twist-off trucks I think.  I don't recall them ever mentioning a name for the wheel sensor arrangement.

The 6-31735 is part of the Chessie Diesel Freight Set (TMCC GP30 #6945) SKU: 6-31735, that was released in 2005 and has RS5.  I can't believe that has an axle switch for RPM, I was under the impression that RS5 dealt with that internally.  Oddly, I don't find any parts breakdown for the locomotive under the set ID or the locomotive ID.

You are correct there. My other GP30 has the liondrive and the cam sensor.

It does not ramp up in conventional either, Honestly I'm not too worried about it, I always make it a trailing engine and ramp the RPM up myself.