Buying & Selling - trying something new

Next time, offer to pay the PayPal fee yourself. I don't know exactly how it is done but a forum member did it to me. I told him that PayPal or a personal check was fine and he PayPaled me and paid the fee which I thought was very cool. Some people of course aren't set up on PayPal.

If I recognize the buyer and feel he's upstanding person I have no trouble shipping an item as soon as we agree on a price.  If I really don't know you I'll take a personal check.  When it clears the goods are on their way.  If I'm the buyer I expect the same treatment.   BTW being a TCA member holds no weight with me.

If you pay with Paypal and choose the Personal tab, one of the selections is "Payment Owed".  As long as the money is in the PayPal account, you have no fees.  You're not using the "Gift" option, it really is a "Payment Owed".  If PayPal didn't want you to use that option, they wouldn't have put it on the menu.  I see nothing wrong morally or legally with this option.

Note that the typical PayPal buyer protection is not there, but then I'm not sure how much you're "protected" with a private purchase in any case, even using the commercial payment.

i t has taken20 years+ to buy all the trains i wanted. doest seem wait ing aweek /few days to get another one is a big deal to me. people these days are in to big of hurry .-jim

I have to agree with wild mary and mixerman! TCA is just another set of initials to me

Gunny

I have the same dilemma now occurring with a fellow who is doing some engineering drawings for me. His preference is MoneyGram, and while it is all done on-line - MoneyGram ain't cheap!!!  A $100 transfer costs another $16.

Now the other side of the coin.  I use my debit card extensively. As I have gotten older I just don't like carrying much more than a few dollars. The card definitely has its convenience. 

A week ago, I went over to the local grocery - and my card was denied. Came home to discover some thief on the other side of the planet helped himself to almost $2000 - which triggered a fraud alert and locked the account. While it is obviously a fraud from my viewpoint - the money was still sent. Yes, my bank provided a provisional credit, and a new card - but I had to drive into town to the bank, sign a bunch of paperwork, and then wait a week for the replacement card...at which time it was back to the bank to set a new PIN. Also, should VISA declare the charges legit - I am simply out. I find I have very little voice in the matter - and virtually no way to defend myself.

This ties back to PayPal as I am sure they are a primary target for hackers. I do not know how my card number and name got out there. (Card number has to match up to billing info - or - they have to have the PIN) The bank verified it was not a PIN transaction - so where did they get billing + card info???

The point to acknowledge is that NO ONE'S IT security is 100%. And often, discovery of the breach is long after the fact - if it is detected at all.

In retro- maybe the MO is better. There is something about a physical promissory note that trumps the instant gratification of the micro-second transfer.

When I post items for sale I prefer PayPal but will take MO or checks but I will hold the item till they clear. I will not ask or will I send an item as a gift. Nor do I ask the buyer to pay the 3 percent fee. I also will not buy an item from a seller that don't take PayPal or pay the 3 percent fee. Yes I  have missed out on some items that I wanted but overall it has worked for me. 

Sam your thesis is grossly flawed in that the USPS is an agent of the seller.  USPS is your agent NOT the payee's agent.  It is your responsibility to get payment to the seller.

If you sent your mortgage payment via USPS mail to the loan holder and it does not get there, who is held responsible?

Open an online checking account at ING.  You can "send" money to anyone and it's completely free for both parties.  All you need is the person's email address and the last four digits of their account number.  If the account is another ING account, the transfer happens immediately.  Non-ING accounts take 2 days to show up in the recipient's account.

The recipient gets an email in order to "accept" the money.

I am a seller and buyer. If you agree you want an item from a seller then you agree to pay the way the seller wishes. If I buy something from a seller I ask he or she how they would like to be paid and I get the payment out to them I don't ask them to change their rules or make exceptions if I want an item. I don't take personal checks "Period"a TCA number holds no weight with me either. I think if a seller is selling something cheap and you want the convenience of PayPal I don't think it's the end of the world to send it as a gift or just send a money order for the seller.

When I sell a train item via the forum (I never sell on eBay and I will have nothing to do with PayPal), I accept payment in the form of a personal check or money order.  If I know/recognize the buyer as a fellow forum member, I generally ship the item a day or so after the sale is agreed to, which is usually well before the payment arrives.  A bit risky?  Perhaps, but I have more faith in people than some folks here seem to have.  And if I ever get burned--hasn't happened yet--you can be sure I'll know how to make the "cheater's" life suitably miserable.

If/when I buy trains online, I only buy from those who accept a check, a money order, or a credit card (in the case of dealers, primarily).  I also much prefer, most of the time and with some exceptions, to buy from dealers who accept American Express because that card offers buyer protections not afforded by some other cards.  If I buy from an individual, I generally mail a check the day after the transaction is agreed to.  I'm perfectly happy to wait for the check to clear if that's what the seller wants, but I've found that most sellers ship either when they receive my check or sometimes even before they receive it.

I have done many thousands of dollars worth of "long distance" train buying and selling over a good many years, and have NEVER yet had a problem with a transaction gone bad.

Most train people are good and honest folks.

A tangent into supporting your local hobby shop. If you buy from a local shop in person and want to be considered a good customer and get whatever favored treatment may come with that status - pay in cash and tell them why.

"Let me pay cash instead of credit card so you guys don't have to pay the fee."

These stores work on ultra slim margins and giving them three or four percent extra by not using a credit card is really appreciated  - particularly on those $1200.00 purchases. Figuring they only have 28% to work with and have to discount a good bit of that away to make a sale  - four percent might be more than their profit.

When you beat them up on price and finally make a deal and then hand them a credit card that is going to whack off another four percent they'll remember that next time you're price haggling.

Personally, I prefer using Paypal for both buying or selling over a Money Order.  To me, the convenience of Paypal is worth sucking up the 3% fee.  I can sit at my computer and send someone money instead of trying to get to the post office in the short hours that they are open.  I find cashing a USPS money order to also be a hassle, in that the local post office never seems to have more than $35 - $50 on hand, and the bigger post office is an even further drive.

Regarding shipping the same day, for many of us this just isn't possible.  For many folks who work full-time, unless they want to go into work late one morning, this basically leaves only Saturday morning.

Jim

I think one needs to remember your not dealing with dealers in most cases which means people work and have lives. Once I get a payment I get the item out in 24hr or less packed very well and have had no problems and have even made some friends and have exchanged very nice E-Mails.

I did offer to pay the fee but the seller did not want to use PayPal. That's a person's individual decision and I have to respect that. What I'm going to do from now on is either use PayPal (with me paying the fee) or accept my personal check and I'll wait for shipment when the seller is satisfied that it has cleared.

Will be glad to send a MO or similar IF the seller agrees to ship right away. He also must accept responsibility for its safe arrival - again, my responsibility will end when I hand over cash at the local PostOffice. I do not want MY money at the mercy of the USPS!

Thanks for your ideas and comments. My eBAy score is perfect with 550 reported deals over 13 years with only a few problems that were resolved amicably.

If someone from the forum is sending  me a check, I ship the item as soon as the check is received. Have not had a problem. But would not do that for someone unfamiliar to me.

I have used Paypal quite a bit and I'm fine with the 3%. Gunrunner John is right if you have actual money in your Paypal account you can send it for free. If I'm selling something I figure the fee in my price just like the hobby shop does. I will never hook my Paypal account to a debit card or checking account. My Paypal account is hooked to a credit card and as a result I have some protection for what I'm buying. I think people that will not take it are just afraid to try it.

Ron

Actually, shipping the next day is a piece of cake, working or not.

• Go on-line to USPS and prepare the prepaid shipping label.
• Set up a next-day pickup, also on the USPS site.
• Job done.

Thank you!

Paypal is a luxury to both the buyer and seller.  The money transfer is almost instant.

I think the burden of paying the Paypal fee should be split by both the buyer and seller for one-off purchases (as here on the forum).  As the OP stated, time=money.

That being said, you cannot run a business and accept paypal and still offer competitive pricing.

My .02

Dave 

A week ago, I went over to the local grocery - and my card was denied. Came home to discover some thief on the other side of the planet helped himself to almost $2000 - which triggered a fraud alert and locked the account. While it is obviously a fraud from my viewpoint - the money was still sent. Yes, my bank provided a provisional credit, and a new card - but I had to drive into town to the bank, sign a bunch of paperwork, and then wait a week for the replacement card...at which time it was back to the bank to set a new PIN. Also, should VISA declare the charges legit - I am simply out. I find I have very little voice in the matter - and virtually no way to defend myself.

I never liked the idea of a debit card or an ATM card. Too easy to get hijacked. In the case of a debit card if you make a purchase, say a gift card for a restaurant, and the business closes you have no recourse. If the purchase was made by credit card you can always dispute the charge. Not so with a debit card.

This happened to some friends of ours who got us a gift certificate to a restaurant and paid by debit card, and before we had a chance to use it the restaurant closed. It was not one of the chain restaurants so we did not have an opportunity to go to another location.

It was only two weeks between getting the gift and attempting to use it so it's not like we waited a long time.

I've posted several ads recently.  The nights I do it, I'm up until 2:00 am, getting shipping quotes from USPS.com, packing, and printing postage.   Not complaining but I know those nights are not high on my fun list.  I just really need the money right now.

That being said, you cannot run a business and accept paypal and still offer competitive pricing.

Dave, please explain as I don't use PayPal.

If I order something from an online dealer it's by credit card.  If I buy something from a LHS it's cash, debit, or credit card.  If I buy from an individual (like from the OGR BUY/SELL section) I used check or money order.

Never had an issue, other than buying over the internet using my credit card.  Once I bought something from an online place in Florida and the other from a place in New York.  Both times someone tried to use my CC to buy something.  As a result i don't order from these 2 places anymore.

From what I read in some peoples remarks on the forum and actually heard folks at train shows, they never buy from anyone unless they get a discount/deal.  I have never gone into a LHS or even a show like Greenbergs and "bickered" about the price.  If I don't like the price I see, I don't buy it and move on.  I don't go into a grocery store or Wal-Mart and bicker with them over the price of a can of corn, why would I treat a LHS or train vendor any differently?

Some of us get it. I requoted that to remind people - if you like your local hobby shop - pay them in cash, or if  not practical - by check. When you break out the credit or debit card it costs them more money. In fact, they end up paying a fee on sales tax as well.

On a $1000.00 purchase, the store could pay as much as $40.00 in merchant fees for giving you the privilege of using a credit card. To add insult to injury, as a tax collector in a 7% state, the store has to collect $70.00 in sales tax and send it to the state. If you charge the purchase, the store gets charged another $2.80 on the $70.00 in sales tax.

Work with these guys or eventually there won't be any left.

The points made on using debit cards is a warning.  You have no leg to stand on if the charge is made and the goods are not delivered with a debit cards. 

Credit cards are the best way to go, that is if you have the money to pay off the balance every month.  If not use cash or do not buy.  Credit cards let you use their money, for free, for a month before you have to pay.

Credit cards let us actually be safer with money and lets us carry less cash.  I could not imagine traveling without a credit cards (more than one in case of problems) and having to carrying all that cash or get checks cashed on the road.  They share in bad purchases and some even make you money.  I earn 1% to 5% back on things like groceries, gasoline etc.  5% back on gasoline is worth about 17 cents per gallon.  I earn couple hundred dollars per year on credit cards.

Charlie

Well, this is not true.  I have never heard of a case where a fraudulent charge on a credit card wasn't 100% reimbursed.  In any case, your total liability is a total of $50 for fraudulent charges.  I've had a number of incidents like this with credit cards, and none of the companies have ever charged me anything.  Getting $50 from you and losing a customer is very bad business, and it's just a business for them.  The first time the card company charges me anything for such a charge, I will no longer be a customer.

John:

If you reread the original post - he was referring to having used his debit card, not credit card.

 My original post is about if asked to send payment by Money Order or similar involving me handing over my cash at the local post office and mailing the payment, from now on I want the item sent at the same time as I am now considering my obligation fulfilled.

If the seller  is insisting that I use the USPS in lieu of me using PayPal (and me paying the fee), to me, when I purchase the MO I have just paid in full for the item and will expect them to start the shipment process.

I don't want my 'cash' floating around out there in the unlikely even of a lost letter for 60 days.  If the seller wants to transact the deal in this manner, they will have to assume responsibility for the safe arrival of the payment.

I didn't mention Debit/Credit or other cards at all!

And please fellas,  I'm not trying to offend or step on anyone's toes in the slightest. This is a personal decision for me alone. Fortunately,, as Alan said earlier, "Most train people are really nice, reasonable, and decent guys (and gals)." I've had nothing but pleasant dealings here in over 3 years now...

I wasn't referring to you sam. I was referring to the guy who got ripped off on his debit card account which is what was quoted.

You're right Harry - Sorry. I thought you were referring to 'the original post'!

I also think that some of the banking rules have changed over the past several years. Banks clear checks much faster, sometimes within 24 hours, which eliminated the practice of people using the float.

In other words, some people would write a check, know they did not have sufficient funds, but expected to make a deposit within several days. They would use the so called float period to pay a bill on time.

The banking rules changed requiring banks to process and clear checks in a much shorter time. Thus the float period was effectively eliminated.

You're right, I didn't realize it was a debit card!  I have two of them, and I've never used them.  My old bank would make a special effort to remove the debit feature from the ATM card, but I couldn't get the clowns at TD to do so.

That being the case, this is yet another example of why I never consider using the debit card!

Debit cards drive me wild.

They have led to a lot of bad habits as well. My wife will leave the house at 10:00 and return at 4:00 and plop six debit card receipts on my desk. Stopped at this store, stopped for lunch with her daughter, stopped for gas, went food shopping, stopped at the convenience store and so on and so on.

I'm old school. I write checks and I use cash. I also balance my checking account and use Microsoft Money to track all transactions. So when she brings me six receipts, that six I have to enter into the computer and file away.

The growing trend, due to the convenience of debit cards is to stop balancing accounts each month. People go to an ATM, check their balance to see how much money they have on hand and spend accordingly. Balancing your checkbook is a lost art.

When I opened a new bank account here some five years ago, the bank sent me a debit card--pretty much standard practice these days, I guess.  I cut it into small pieces and dispensed with it.  Thanks...but no thanks!  One less thing to worry about.

Hi Sam,

I can see and appreciate the logic in your statement, but insisting on shipment before the actual MO arrives will definitely not be acceptable to many sellers.

I can honestly say that if a prospective buyer were to make that statement to me I would have to think twice about the transaction. If I knew the buyer, it would be no problem, but if a stranger made that demand of me, it would raise a red flag, and I would refuse to go through with the sale.

These days, there are just too many people playing games on both ends of sales - just an unfortunate characteristic of the world in which we live.

Jim

It is of course your perogative but WHY belong to TCA if you do not extend any COURTESIES to fellow members?  I keep an old Directory handy at all times, or call the National Business Office to verify memberships. I guess I am too trusting, as I extend as many caveats to both FELLOW Tcaers and OGRers as I can.  Repeat customers on here can vouch I have shipped before payment received.  I really don't expect people to risk memberships on a single locomotive/train item. Harry and Allan have hit the nail on the head above!!!

hello guys and gals...........

how about using a PRE-PAID card ?  If a train costs 500 dollars and get the pre-paid card and put 525 dollars in it just enough to cover the card fees and shipping fees if purchasing out of home state you living in such as ordering online. I make sure that the pre-paid card does not required my SS number.  So far i never had any problems of hackers.  Any down side of using the pre-paid card , i think not.

the woman who loves toy trains

Tiffany

I'd like to do the same, but I do want the ATM feature because I sometimes want to stop by the an ATM and get cash.

I rarely carry allot of cash because I use my debit card for almost everything. Grocery shopping, gas, even the hobby shop. All my bills are paid online. I can even take a picture of a check I receive to deposit without ever going to the bank. If I need cash i can  go to the ATM, simple eh!!!!!! 

I prefer to use PayPal and will often state to the seller that I will gladly pay the fee if they will accept PP. It is just far more convenient to use PP, than to make a trip for MO or CC. I often avoid sellers that refuse PP unless it is something that I really want and have had difficulty finding elsewhere.