Can you identify my 1950's or 1960 train set?

Does your brother have any specific recollection?

This set seems like a candidate. You had extra cars.

Clearly an American Flyer set....but is that a Lionel TW transformer? Best picture view is the 2nd picture.

Peter

Very nice layouts you had. The engine is a pacific style and the tender appears to be a Northwestern road name from the slanted white lettering. A possible set would be a 1957 20320 with some extra cars. I was keying on sets that had both a C&NW Pacfific and a MKT yellow/Tuscan boxcar. There are a number of sets made through the late 50's and early 60's that are possibilities if extra cars were purchased. Gilbert also made a large number of uncatalogued sets that are also possibilities. Hopefully someone more familiar with 5 digit sets can help. 

I know little about Flyer, except for seeing it in stores as a kid, and neighbor kids

had Atlantic sets, but as in the case of a Marx engine on another thread, that second

picture shows me a four wheel rear truck on the near loco in the second picture,

That means the loco is a Hudson.  No sets came with that many cars, so...add-ons,

or combined sets.  If you had only one engine, I'd say the base was a Hudson freight

set.  In the fourth view, the engine is far away, and looks smaller, maybe an Atlantic,

but that just might be the photo....

That Pacific appears to have a diecast trailing truck like the one that's on the Pennsy K-5.  The Chicago and Northwestern 21085 from 1958 and a few years after that had the diecast trailing truck instead of the plain/exposed wheel version like the 282 and 283 that were produced before the 1957/1958 switch to 5 digit numbers in the Flyer line.  I got out a magnifying glass and it looks like a C&NW herald in the 2nd and 4th picture.  There's a tuscan colored Union Pacific 3 bay hopper - that was 24216 from 1958-1960.  The black lumber load flatcar is probably a 24516 NH that ran from 1957-1959, or possibly the 928 NH that ran through 1957.  Yellow boxcar with tuscan roof is a MKT numbered 937 that ran until 1958 or the hyper rare 24016 from 1958 only.  Single dome Gulf tankcar is either a 925 that ran through 1957 or a 24310 that was in the line from 1958-1960.  Yellow generator on a depressed center Erie flatcar is either a 946 from 1957 or 24529 from 1957-1958.  3rd picture looks like a rocket launching flatcar in front of the caboose that's either a 969 from 1957 or a 25045 from 1957-1960.  Caboose looks like a Reading 930 from 1953-1957 or 24603 1957-1958, 24608 from 1957, or 24610 from 1958-1960.  Transformer is indeed a Lionel TW.  Those are very educated guesses on the engine and cars based on what I could make out with the magnifying glass and a couple Greenberg illustrated books on Flyer.

Gilbert mixed 3 digit cars with 5 digit cars to fill out sets in 1957 and 1958; 1957 had a number of 3 digit cars appearing in the new 5 digit numbered boxes.  A handful of 5 digit cars like the 24016 MKT boxcar are in the mid to high hundreds for a VG or better car.  Good luck on your hunt - most of the items can be had for not too much $$$.

Thanks everyone.  

Just so you know:  I am familiar with trains.  I have a few Flyer and a lot of Lionel postwar and MPC.

Yes. The transformer is a Lionel TW.  I never got to ask Dad why that was. . .

Also, the caboose had a (blue?) man that moved in with track power and back out when off.  It was brown.  Does that help identify the year?

The engine was stored in a brown, corrugated roll.  The chug chug and smoke were awesome.

The rocket launcher car was a blast.  Broke many rockets, and a few knick knacks trying to catch it!

We had a re-railer section of track.

I remember both yellow/blue and red/white boxes in Dad's storage box every Christmas.  

Blue and yellow boxes up to 1957, red and white boxes will be 5 digit items.  Sounds like you had an action caboose - I'm out the door in a minute and don't have a number for that.  That Lionel transformer was great for your Flyer trains - your dad probably got a good deal on it instead of getting a Flyer transformer.  The set probably came with a small transformer that was adequate for a small loop of track and the train, maybe a low powered accessory.  The corrugated wrapper is how your engine was packed for inclusion in its set - good job on remembering those details...

With the new information about the caboose and the great magnifying glass examination by MTN the only possible starter catalogued set would be the the 1957 20320 Mountaneer. It contained the 925 Gulf tank car, 937 MKT box car, 928 New Haven lumber car and the 979 Action caboose. The engine was the C&NW Pacific. Since yours appears to have the die cast trailing truck it would be a 21084, indicating a late production set. The 21084 was an uncatalogued engine packed in some of the 20320 sets. The more common engine in that set was the 283, but it did not have the die cast trailing truck. 

The cars above would have been in blue/yellow boxes in the set box. The other cars if purchased in 1958 or later to add to the set would have been in red/white boxes. This set also included a 50 watt transformer. Someone decided the larger Lionel transformer was better. 

A major caveat is Gilbert made hundreds of uncatalogued sets, some with as many as 13 cars. Robert Tufts published a book detailing these. It is not computer searchable so I have not been able to quickly see if one of those is a closer match to your train set. 

All the Gilbert catalogs are posted online at www.myflyertrains.org if you want to see the catalog listing. 

I'm impressed people have been able to give such good answers. Fun topic, and it looks like a fun setup for the holiday season

Rick, these are really interesting pictures. There is a nice selection of Plasticville on the layouts. The Christmas '59 Layout is on grass mat that was common then. The '65 layout did not appear to use the grass mat. In the '59 pictures one track switch is visible, in the '65 layout none are visible but the controller is on the control panel. It appears to be a standard two switch comtroller, not the rare single switch controller. The Gilbert control buttons above the switch controller were likely for the action car (rocket launcher) and an uncoupler. Not sure what the 3rd one would have operated. Was there a billboard whistle Or another accessory?

AmFlyer,

My 21084 does not have the die cast trailing truck, but the same type as on the 283.  I do have a 21085 with the die cast truck.  (My set was also uncatalogued--from Sears, I think.)

Mark

Mark, thank you for the information. I do not have a 21084 so I looked at the Doyle book. It is silent on the trailing truck style. I pulled out an older book, 1991 by Deger and sure enough it states the 21084 has the one piece drawbar/trailing truck. No variations are listed. No pictures are included of a 21084. There is a flyer website that has a picture of one but i did not trust it because some of the pictures on that site are apparently photoshopped, the 21084 picture is clearly photoshopped from the 1956 283 picture. I have several 21085's all with the diecast truck.

If you have the set number of your set but not the Tufts book I can look it up for you and tell you who sold it.

Tom,

A set number from 1957 by a 11 year old kid???  

Mark

Am I reading this right, you have the engine but not the original set box??? Or Was the 21084 not part of the Sears set?

I took another look at the Deger Greenberg book (I have the 5th edition from 1997).  The 21084 is described as having the one piece trailing truck/drawbar assembly.  Seems odd that Flyer would upgrade the plastic boilered C&NW Pacific in 1958 with the diecast trailing truck when it was renumbered to 21085.  Cost cutting must not have gone into full effect at Gilbert as that diecast assembly would have been more expensive to make than the stamped steel drawbar with the bare plastic wheelset.

Lots of info here, most right, some wrong. The guess that the base set might be the 20320 from 1957 makes sense, but the 5620T from 1956 was identical. Both sets came with the 928 lumber car, 925 Gulf tank car, 937 MKT box car, and the 977 action caboose. The 1957 catalog incorrectly shows the caboose as the 979 action caboose but this is incorrect as all known sets supposedly had the 977. The third picture appears to show the brass railings and ladders on the caboose, a tip-off that it's a 977. The locomotive is definitely a plastic C&NW Pacific. Most sets had the 283, but a few 1957 sets had the identical locomotive numbered 21084.

As far as boxes go, the set quite possibly was originally packed with the blue/yellow boxes (the ones with the 1947 copyright date), but the later red/white boxes were also used with 3-digit components. Several of the 1956 sets came with the red/white boxes.

It's great that the photos were saved to remind everyone of those wonderful trains!

The caboose pictured on the layout is clearly not a bay window version so it would have to be a 977 action caboose. I missed that in the pictures earlier. 

Thank you again for all the information Guys!  This is also taking me on a trip dowm memory lane.

Here's a little more information to try to help nail this down even more:

My parents kept a record book of every "major" purchase they ever made.  From their log: Our American Flyer was pruchased in November or December, 1957.  

For . . . $37.50.

So, that puts my set right at the 1957/1958 transition that many of you mentioned.  That doesn't help with identifying it . . .

Also, we had a local hobby store; but, we also had a hardware store that had a huge inventory of trains only around Christmas.  So, I'll assume this could have been a new 1958 set, or a 1957 set from last year's inventory.  

More info:

I remember the pair of switches were in a red/white box.  I believe some or all of the track was also in red/white boxes.  I do not know if all the cars were in blue/yellow boxes.  

I do not know if the extra cars were purchased at the same time, or later.  I would think "later" because $37.50 was a fortune to Mom & Dad in 1957.  The picture shows we had them all (at least) by January 1960.

MTN:  You are probably right about Dad buying the Lionel TW because the Flyer transformer probably couldn't handle the extra track or cars.  I attached one of the full pictures at the end of this.  It shows my brother using a black American Flyer transformer in the 1960 picture.  Good Call!  That also leads me to believe Dad initially bought a set.

AmFlyer:  Good catch on the different platforms.  I'll explain that in a minute.  Yes. Ours had a single switch controller with 2 switches.  We had an inside figure eight (some years).  Dad built the control box.  On the left is a white fuse holder, a white power (household 120 volt) switch with a red lamp next to it.  The 3 buttons were for the rocket launcher car and the whistling billboard.  I don't remember what the 3rd button was.  I'll assume an uncoupler but I don't remember ever using an uncoupler.  The brown household switches on the right were to turn on the lights he put in the O27 Plasticville buildings and the Christmas Tree lights.  I loved the whistling billboard!  I have 2 different versions on my current layout.  Also, you are correct.  It was not a bay window caboose.

Plastic engine?  That surprises me.  I am definitely not saying you're wrong.  It just surprises me.

Okay, at this point I must announce:

"Forgive me people, for I have sinned."

Apparently (or so I am told) around the age of 5-6, I said I wanted HO.  

I know, I know, I know. . .

Dad bought someone else's existing HO platform and trains.  The 1965 pictures are the 3/4" plywood, HO platform, cut down to fit on top of our homasote platform.  It came with painted roads, glued-down grass and dirt, and HO Plasticville.  The 1965 pictures show the HO on the inside and our American Flyer running on the outside loop.  Sometime after those pictures, Dad sold the Flyer.  A very, very sad memory indeed. 

I would say that transformer is a 0090 ( (i think) for the inner HO set ) they looked a lot alike

Thanks for posting the additional picture, it is nice to have them. Your brother is using the transformer that was packed in the set. It was a #1 1/2 50 W. It was marginal even without powering the lights in the track switches and controller box. From the purchase date the set would have either been a new 20320 or a leftover 5620T from 1956. Marketing was different in those days, the 1958 sets would not be in the stores until mid 1958. 

I mentioned an uncoupler for one of the buttons since the set included one. The 283 Pacific was definitely made with plastic engine and tender shells. The engine chassis was metal. 

I am very fortunate to have all my original trains with the original boxes. switching to HO must have been common. In 1956 my dad bought us a Gilbert HO set so from Christmas of 1957 through 1959 we had HO layouts. Today I have all the Flyer and my brother has all the HO, but he bought Flyer for his kids layouts when they were young. 

The nice thing is for those of us who are interested it is easy to acquire duplicates of our childhood trains. 

Any more thoughts on whether I probably had a 283 or a 21084?

I don't think it makes any difference, since you don't know for sure which one you had.  You only want to replicate the pieces, and the 283 will be easier to find, IMO.

Richie

Other than eBay, can anyone sugest anywhere I can find the 20320 set to purchase?

I am not sure anyone here can conclusively determine which engine you had. IF the base set was a 5620T then it is 99.9% likely the engine was a 283. IF the base set was a 20320 then the odds are something like 80% 283, 20% 21084. I do not know the relative scarcity of the 21084 so that ratio is an estimate.

If the resolution of the original print is better than the posted scan try looking at the first two 1965 prints with a magnifying glass. On those the cab with the number is visible. to me it looks like it is 3 digits long but it is really hard to tell.

There is one other confusing item. The catalog list price of both the above sets was $34.95, but your parents notes say they paid $37.95. The difference is more than the sales tax. Was the store west of the Mississippi? If so that could account for the difference. In any event that was an expensive gift back then.

MTN, thanks for posting the auction photos.

It depends if you want it with or without the set box. With the set box is much harder. The best place would be Fall S Fest in St Louis beginning 10/30. Next would be at York. Third would be the DuPage meet. and the fall CalStewart show at the Ontario convention center, a lot of Flyer collectors are there. If you do not want to use EBAY you will need to make some contacts in the S dealer community so they call you when one shows up.I did a quick look at my 5 digit set inventory when you first posted and do not have one.

I looked at a lot of pictures of 283s and 21084s on eBay, present and past offerings.

Then, I looked at my original photos with a magnifying glass and a bright flashlight.

And, thanks to all of the great information from all of you, I can identify my engine as a 283.

The cab of the engines has two windows with a post in the middle.  On the 283s, most of the number is in front of the window and below the forward window section.  None of the number is below the rearward window section.  

The 21084s numbers go into the rear window section area (and is wider overall).

Looking at my original 1965 photo with the magnifying glass, the numbers are clearly forward of, and beneath the forward window section, only.   Also, when I compare the width of the numbers of a 283 or 21084, my numbers are definitely the size of the 283. 

I am now confident it was a set #20320 Mountaineer Freight (or possibly an uncataloged set), with the 283 engine and the 900 series cars.  I have no way of knowing which version of the generator car or the rocket launcher car I had because one number of each is 1957, and the other numbers are 57-58 or 57-60.  The hopper car has to be the 24216, 58-60, as mentioned above.

I have been curious about "What numbers was my train" for decades.  I'm glad I asked you guys, and I am very, very thankful to all of you for taking the time to help me nail it down.  Thank you again!  I will now set out to locate that set in the very best condition I can find it, preferably with the set box.  If anyone comes across one in great condition, whether online, or while you're at a show, please email me at RickSinVA@gmail.com.

Thank you again!  You guys are great!

Rick

Tom,

The set was bought in Northeast PA.  Dad must have bought extra track, or one of the extra cars, at the same time.

In the 80s or early 90s I met a Flyer dealer that always had trains for sale in great condition.  I saw him in PA and upstate NY but I believe he would travel anywhere to buy Flyer trains in excellent condition.  He was into real estate and I believe his name was Gary.  Does anyone know him?

Gary Clark and Laura Zase (I believe husband/wife) are a Flyer dealership that specializes in mint or LN OB. I purchased a LN set of 500 series passenger cars from them some years ago. They should be at fall York plus some other shows in the northeast.

When you 're rebuilding the set, don't forget the Plasticville switch tower, gas station, and especially the Auburn rubber car, that's also in the photos.

Richie

I will vote late....... American Flyer 

Gary - Cheers from The Detroit & Mackinac Railway  

Thanks again everyone!  

I would like to be of help to you and contribute to your community knowledge base.  I don't have much Flyer, and I'm sure you already have a lot of information available on the items I have.  However . . . you never know.

My Flyer is mixed-in with my Lionel.  I will post the engine numbers.  If you would like any closer pictures or car numbers, just ask.

Thank you all again!

Rick

302 Steam

343 Steam

21085 Steam

9900 Zephyer

(210) 88 Franklin

I see you have (among many other trains) the AF Frontiersman set.  That was my first electric train set, and it will always be my favorite.  I wish you success in your search.

Richie