Can you tell us about these Williams locos circa 1984 ?

Early Williams came with just a rectifier and therefore ran forward only. I have replaced these with new electronic Williams  e units and have also used new Dalee    e units. Both work fine.

I have two of the SD45 locos(no traction tires).  Williams provided a diagram to use a standard Lionel E-unit for reversing, which I did(anyone who realizes the E-unit is a DPDT switch with "center off" can come up with their own wiring scheme pretty quickly anyway).  The frames(as in your pic) have a slot for the E-unit lever.

 

The Williams TCA GG1(with magnetracton!) also wired for one direction only was furnished(after original distribution) with an upgrade kit containing a full wave bridge rectifier and a Lionel E-unit from Williams.  These only had one motor, a second motor upgrade was offered later.

 

When Williams started using traction tires, they reduced the size of the ballast weights as seen in your pic.

 

I have stretched the standard 222-108 tires over the Williams wheels to provide traction for non-tire equipped locos, and they pull very well.

IF you want traction tires, Fred Timko can cut them out for you. I used to have these locos. They are great pullers if you get the traction tires. Otherwise they are great for pushing.

 

Just be careful when cutting power to them. without flywheels, These mabutchi can motors will stop the train on a dime and cars will go flying.

 

Also note the current WBB 6 wheel truck upgrades will work on these old locos as the key on the frame will fit. the 6 wheeled truck kits have a reverse unit that is BETTER than that older Blue unit which was suseptable to the triacs burning out.  If you can find the Williams Sd45 Fuel tank, it will fit the older Sd45 frame as well. So will the EMD side frames to the trucks. Enjoy and good luck.

 

Is the Williams Trainmaster body a re-run of the postwar Lionel version?

Not a rerun but a near copy of the postwar shell. Also note the Williams Sd45 and the Trainmanster have identical frames to cut costs but the screw mounts to attach the bodies are different.

I bought a older Williams loco that was body and chassis only with instructions on what Lionel components were needed to complete it.  So no DCU/E unit is not uncommon IIRC. Sometimes I think about pulling all the DCU's out and running DC power!

Those early Williams diesels came out when electronic reverse units were in their infancy. Instructions explained how to install Lionel E-units. I installed QSI reverse units in mine. These days, units designed for can motors (including Williams) work fine. Dallee makes good ones, too.

 

Consider adding sounds. They make a BIG difference!

The Story of Williams Electric Trains, by John Hubbard, is the best resource for Williams from the beginning to 1987. It's a Greenberg publication.

Thanks everyone, that's all good info that we are interested to hear.          

 

I just got the word that the train owner wants to go ahead with installing E-units. He has a KW transformer to run them with, which Ed and I already repaired. So we're looking for electronic e-units suitable for these dual-motor Williams locos. Perhaps with an electronic horn also. I'll be researching Dallee and QSI, thanks for the leads.

The Williams reverse unit and true-blast horn kits are available as separate purchase items.

 

Horn Kit

 

Reverse Unit

I have several older Williams engines and they have the very primitive electronic circuit board reverse unit, not a good design, but the motors are great.

 

To the best of my knowledge all Williams had a reverse circuit board installed(forward, nuetral, reverse, nuetral, forward) when Jerry Williams owned the company. If the bridge rectifier is in there then it was done by the person who bought the unit and not Williams.

 

FYI, Williams used QSI circuit boards with the Crown Edition engines. Williams used other circuit boards before and after QSI, you need to know the date code of the circuit board as Williams used about six different circuit boards. True Blast 2 horn units are after QSI.

Also the circuit boards by Bachmann/Williams will work in the older Williams.

 

A circuit board from Electronic RR or MTH or other companies will work as long as you know how to wire it to the Williams motors.

 

Lee F.

Looked at the motors and frame of your SD-45, one has both frame weights and one is missing a frame weight. Also the one with a bridge rectifier is very sloppily done, so I know Williams didn't attempt that wire job.

 

The Williams tooling may be very similar to Lionel on the body of the shell, but motors and trucks will never fit each other! You can change out shells from each other and only need to drill new screw-holes in the frame if needed. The older Williams SD-45's had all metal wheels, not four wheelsets being metal and the dummy set being plastic like with WBB(Williams by Bachman). I had to change out my plastic wheels because they don't work with Lionel accessories or switches.

 

Lee F.

Lee, Williams absolutely wired them just as shown.  I took delivery of two SD-45's and 2 F-7's brand new direct from Williams configured as such.

 

The chassis w/ 2 weights does not have traction tires.  The other is not missing any weights, they only used 1 when traction tire equipped.

I have three FP45s from the first run which I think was 1989 and they are very similar designs.  I used to run all three powered together at train shows because they could pull over 20 scale passenger cars with lighting and only draw 5 amps total off the transformer.

Now that I'm moving out of non-scale items these are going up for sale, but they were great while I had them.  True stump pullers.

The Dallee works very good with the early Williams engines.  Williams Trainmasters were very hot when they first showed up.  I still have my first Lackawana that I purchased at York from a young kid named Mike in the early 80's.  He was located at the south end of the Yellow hall.  Any other old timers out there remember his name?

 

 

One thing I will add is that if they want to run these engines with other brands, it is best to upgrade ordering the Williams power upgrade kit.  This is what I did with my 1984 SD45 because the existing motors have a different speed ratio than newer engines.  I upgraded mine to TMCC and MU it with a modern Williams U33c I also added TMCC to.

I AM VERY HAPPY I FOUND THIS THREAD TODAY , I HAVE TWO  OF THESE EARLY TRAINMASTERS IN S.P. BLACKWIDOW PAINT. I COULDN'T FIGURE WHY ONE HAS AN E-UNIT AND THE OTHER DOESN'T . THIS OPENED MY EYES TO THE FACT THAT A PIG IN THE POKE CAN BE A JEWEL IN DISGUISE. THANKS

I have two of the early SD-45's one with only a rectifier, the other with a reverse unit and horn. The first came complete the second came with a separate bag full of hand rails and add on parts. Both came straight from Williams in brown boxes with red lettering wrapped in foam rubber.
I also have two FM's. One has a reverse unit only and has Williams stamped on the bottom in a Williams box(as above). The other one came in a white box with QSI logo on it. It has the reverse unit and horn. But nowhere is Williams logo, box, outside of unit or inside. Did QSI contract with the same supplier to build engines of their own? Is this an earlier/later unit? Did Williams do a custom run for QSI without logo's? Who really knows?

Thank you everyone for the responses. This is all very interesting !

It is a "Custom Trains" model.

I thought the Williams FP45's were scale size, if not exactly the most detailed models ever made. I have a pair, and they look pretty big, but I've never measured them. Do you know for sure if these are scale size or not?

I don't know how this took place, don't have the details, but Williams did contract out some of their engines to another company to sell with differant options then a standard Williams engine.

Williams did this with their brass line of engines.

 

Lee F.

ACE

 

Thank you for posting photos of these diesels with early Maryland Drives.

The Williams FP45s are short by several scale feet and you can see it in the nose in particular which is more snub nosed than the prototype.  I had considered taking two and bashing them into a scale model as the cross section is more or less scale, but since I'm moving out of most of my three rail I gave up on the project. 

 

I have always liked them as one of them was my first big O locomotive and they are excellent runners.  I would have kept them, but I have a pair of 3rd Rail Amtrak FL9s to replace them with on the way.  If you are coming up for the Turkey Meet, I'm selling them at $75 each!    One is wired to start in reverse.

 

Is there something that can be done to an older set of Williams passenger cars?

The cars derail almost anywhere on the layout, even on long straight runs, the passenger cars are the older Williams Crown Edition "Reading Company 'King coal' set."

Is it possible these cars need new truck & coupler assemblies, if so at $15.00 a shot(Bachmann prices) for truck assemblies it will cost me big time to upgrade the six car set, 12 times $15 is $170.00, $30.00 more than I paid for the set.

 

Lee F.

on the passenger cars derailing the only thing that comes to mind is the wire coming off the trucks is to stiff. Try rewiring one car with a super flex wire and see if this solves the problem. If you feel replacement is the way to go Charlie Phillips stocks most Williams parts and would probably be cheaper. I can't find his number but I'm sure some one else can help.

Regarding the discrepany from scale dimensions of the Williams FP45, place it next to the MTH FP45 which is a more accurate model and the difference will be readily apparent. Regardless of cosmetic deficiencies, when Williams introduced its models of the SD45, FP45 and others, they were a refreshing change from and welcome addition to Lionel's offerings, most engine types of which had been in the product line a long, long time.

 

Bob   

I agree, and they were great for economical kitbashing of more modern power;  as I recall it was possible to buy just the body shells in quantity for $15 each.  If only the cab of the SD had been more correct [ I think it was wider to house the motor, hence the slope of the cab roof sides was way too steep ] it would have been even better.

 

From memory the reason the FP has those length and nose discrepancies is that it was a model of the SDP40F [ = Amtrak ], not a '45. 

Best regards, SZ

Here is a picture to help this discussion along.

 

The Amtrak unit is a stock Williams FP45. This is from one of the first production runs, which had no Amtrak arrow. I added the arrow.

 

The middle unit is a much modified Williams piece. The nose has been lengthened a good 1/2", with a cooresponding increase added to the middle of the frame. The fuel tank has been stretched to fit the resulting gap between the trucks. The rear radiator section has been cut out and reversed, and the steam generator details removed. The front radiator fan has a winterization hatch covering it. The top headlight was filled in, and grab irons, handrails, and a snowplow added. By rights, this is now classified as an F45, which is what the Susquehanna bought second hand from the Burlington Northern.

 

Both of these units are twin motored with the big, non-flywheel can motors. Cut the power, and they stop on a dime!

 

The bottom unit is a stock MTH FP45. It is considerably longer than either of the 2 Williams units.

 

Note the trucks on these units. The MTH set is correct, with 3 axles, evenly spaced. The Williams units have the 2 powered  outboard axles incorrectly closer together. This is because Williams used the same power block as on the FM Trainmaster. The spacing is correct for the Trainmaster, but not for an EMD 6 axle unit.

 

Chris

LVHR

"the reason the FP has those length and nose discrepancies is that it was a model of the SDP40F [ = Amtrak ], not a '45."

 

No. The reason was economics, pure and simple. Williams wanted to use as much of his existing tooling as possible to keep the costs down. The FP45, SD45, and FM all share the same frame, motors, and truck block castings. The nose is short B/C the motor gets in the way if it is the correct length. My modified shell has very little clearance inside. It probably won't tolarate much front to back motion. Also, if I recall correctly, the fuel tank on the SD45s is mounted backwards, B/C the holes in the frame for the fuel tank locating pins are for the FM.

 

Chris

LVHR

Chris is correct, my memory [ and I did qualify what he quoted ] was 'inverted':  It was an FP45 masquerading as an SDP40F [ when in Amtrak colors ], not the other way round.

 

    Most of my conversions were to 4 axle configurations, economical [ because Blombergs were a lot less expensive than 3 axle Flexicoils ] and fun but not prototypical.  The most time consuming part was in the d/brake area [ removing one fan ].

 

Best regards, SZ