Caveat Emptor, Sometimes It Hurts

Return it for a refund and wait for a newer one.

I expect that Trainz will give you a refund or repair the engine - your choice.

I see their listing said the engine was "functional" and "had been modified by a previous owner" and described the modifications. Also stated that "Smoke looks great" and listed smoke as "working."

MELGAR

@J.Dooley posted:

Found an MTH Coal Turbine, one of the original PS ones (20-2214-1), with the bonus that the previous owner had already upgraded it to PS2! Since I can't find one of the new PS3 ones (20-21054-1) anywhere, I figured this would be a good middle ground. Plus I'm buying it from one of the biggest used train(z) resellers on earth, what could go wrong?

Well, a lot. This engine is in WONDERFUL shape on the outside, but the inside is a mess. It looks like the entire front smoke unit on the B-unit was removed, and someone just sealed up the stack, presumably so you didn't drop smoke fluid directly onto the electronics. The rear smoke unit has some especially cooked batting, and the smoke unit in the lead unit sounds like it's a car trying to start in the cold. All of the sliding switches for the smoke units have been removed, the reseller drilled a hole into the mesh where the rear smoke unit sits ("to get a needle in to fill the smoke unit" they say).

Sigh.

I'm tempted to try and rebuild this one with a new PS3 upgrade kit, and put the smoke unit and switches back in place. Or, just keep hoping for one of the newer ones to show up in Buy/Sell. I do love this engine, though. MTH did a great job with it!

Reach out to Trainz customer service. Since it was listed as being modified, the may not be willing to do the repairs but I'm sure they would give you a discount on your purchase price.

I've sent a few engines back for repairs at no cost (they even send you the shipping label), or gotten partial refunds. They stand by what they sell and will work with you.

Those are unique models so I could understand taking a chance on it.

Good luck.

Bob

I feel bad, which I'm sure is dumb. It's a used train that's 25 years old and I knew it had been upgraded. I read the service report. With the exception of the smoke (no chance that engine ever smoked well in the last 12 months), it's not inaccurate, maybe just...unclear.

They've always been good to me, though, so I'll reach out and see what the options are.

When buying used from anywhere the value proposition for me when it arrives in less than perfect condition is, "did I pay a reasonable price for the item I received?"  For an iconic locomotive such as this, personally just having it run with the added bonus of DCS would make up for it not having smoke if the price was good.  Just my opinion.  As others have stated Trainz will accept returns postage paid so you aren't out anything to send it back other than you are back on the hunt for one that meets more of your expectations.

Oddly, I had the exact same experience, only with a purchase on eBay.  I bought the same PS/1 UP Coal Turbine that was "upgraded" to PS/3.  Since it was a great price even for the plain PS/1 model, and clearly the exterior was in excellent shape, I shot the dice.

The only "upgrade" was the motor drive, sound, and a single headlight.  The smoke units were missing, none of the other lighting was wired, and of course the couplers were not wired either.  For some unknown reason, the smoke manifold in the shell in the lead unit was also removed, and I had to make one of those from scratch.

On the plus side, the actual chassis and shells were excellent, and I did get two fully functional PS/3 logic boards.

Also, one non-standard thing was added, the original owner had added a speaker to the trailing turbine unit.  That actually seemed kinda' cool for the sounds, so I left that enhancement.  The original just had sound in the lead unit.

It took a little effort, but I got it back to fully operational status with everything working as it should.  The quest was over, I have my #80 Coal Turbine.

I'd sure like to know if Lionel bought the tooling for MTH's turbines.  I want an 80 Coal Turbine, but can't ever seem to find one that is in good shape

@cbojanower posted:

I'd sure like to know if Lionel bought the tooling for MTH's turbines. 

I've wondered that, too. Will they show up again?

I don't know why they fascinated me so much, but they did, far more than the then-current (50's - 60's) diesels. I am of an age that I remember when they would show up in Trains magazine "News" items. They were current technology then, very much in use.

Contact Trainz they stand behind what they sell.

@GG1 4877 posted:

When buying used from anywhere the value proposition for me when it arrives in less than perfect condition is, "did I pay a reasonable price for the item I received?"  For an iconic locomotive such as this, personally just having it run with the added bonus of DCS would make up for it not having smoke if the price was good.  Just my opinion.  As others have stated Trainz will accept returns postage paid so you aren't out anything to send it back other than you are back on the hunt for one that meets more of your expectations.

I agree with this, wholeheartedly. Like @gunrunnerjohn mentions in a comment there's so much space inside this model that it would be a fun one to upgrade. The one thing that might be a dealbreaker would be the fact that the reseller "sealed up" the lead smoke stack on the b-unit, and I don't see an easy way to unseal it. I really want that smoke unit working. I sent Trainz an e-mail today and we'll see what's possible when they get back into the office.

@J.Dooley posted:

The one thing that might be a dealbreaker would be the fact that the reseller "sealed up" the lead smoke stack on the b-unit, and I don't see an easy way to unseal it. I really want that smoke unit working. I sent Trainz an e-mail today and we'll see what's possible when they get back into the office.

How did they seal up the smoke unit hole?  That  sounds like a pretty odd thing to do.  I guess as long as the shell is intact, I'm having a hard time with what they could do that I couldn't undo.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

How did they seal up the smoke unit hole?  That  sounds like a pretty odd thing to do.  I guess as long as the shell is intact, I'm having a hard time with what they could do that I couldn't undo.

It looks like they CA-glued a piece of plastic into the underside of the shell. I was hoping it was hot glue, I could fix that.

I have a call with them this morning, let's see what happens.

On balance I have done OK in the second hand market.  The last two locos I bought though were disappointments.  One I can fix well enough on my own to bring it up to 98%.  The other's future is undecided.  They are reminders though of why used locos should be bought at a discount.

@J.Dooley posted:

It looks like they CA-glued a piece of plastic into the underside of the shell. I was hoping it was hot glue, I could fix that.

I have a call with them this morning, let's see what happens.

Superglue is very brittle and not terribly permanent. If you can get something under the edge of it and start lifting it, its likely that it'll all break free.

Alternatively, if you can get a blunt tool like a socket extension or an allen socket down the exhaust stack, a couple good whacks with a hand hammer may knock the plate out.  

@Boilermaker1 posted:

Superglue is very brittle and not terribly permanent. If you can get something under the edge of it and start lifting it, its likely that it'll all break free.

Alternatively, if you can get a blunt tool like a socket extension or an allen socket down the exhaust stack, a couple good whacks with a hand hammer may knock the plate out.  

I’d second that, especially if it’s inside, ….Id lightly score the edges of the glued in plastic, gently prying as I moved along, waiting for the tell tale movement……

Pat

Do not be afraid to ask questions. In my dealings on the Bay, almost all respond. Two recent questions have gone unanswered. That being the case, I won’t bid on the items. A third one stated if you have questions, ask. I did. They were answered. Then I was berated, by the seller,  for not bidding on the item. 🤷‍♂️

Steve

I'll 3rd it, I take lots of stuff apart that has been superglued together.

Here's another fun detail about this locomotive...someone flipped the entire frame of the B-unit around, which is probably why the logic board is on the wrong side, which is probably why the smoke unit was removed. It also means the shell is facing backwards, which makes me feel better because I was incredibly confused while watching videos to figure out if I wanted to attempt the PS3 upgrade myself.

It seems like someone was having a good time with that upgrade!

I was bummed when I got my "upgraded" unit, but all of the stuff was somewhat logical once I popped the top and was able to add the missing/miswired elements.

I believe Trainz will make good on your purchase in some manner.  I have been buying from them for several years now.  But, you have to read their descriptions very carefully.  They will have some high end items and it will say 'not checked' and others where they confirm it is working.  'As is' can be a crap shoot too.  I have not seen it lately, but many times they used the same picture in multiple ads of the same item, you have to read the description carefully because the same pic shows up in a C7 rating that is also used in a C5 with scratches and maybe a missing part.  They don't try to deceive, they don't always put the pic of the item for sale in the ad and have seen them say the pic was representative of the item.  Their ebay ads are the same way, double check their website for the same thing and compare notes.  Sometimes, an ebay item is for sale on their website for less.   Like a RR crossing, 'Stop, Look, and Listen',  in their case, look carefully, read the description, and assess if their asking price is worth the chance that you might have to fix something.  I have purchased several grand of locos and cars from them over the years, carefully watching how things sell on several venues and they are usually competitive, and have not been disappointed yet.  But now I better knock on wood before my next order.

My skillset is limited but I usually try to make repairs within my ability. I have made some outstanding buys on eBay but rarely get an engine that doesn't need some kind of adjustment or repair. A long time ago I bought a badly upgraded to late model (3 volt?) PS2 Rail King Hudson PS1. It had mechanical issues so it's been in the bone yard for years. Recently I got an early model Rail King PS2 Mohawk. It only had a few minutes of run time but was a really bad actor on the track. So I pulled out the early PS2 stuff in the Mohawk and replaced with the late PS2 set in the Hudson. It took some drilling, soldering and minor ingenuity to make the overall transfer but the end product runs like a dream and I was proud of the result. So as was stated in other responses, did you pay a good price and can you fix it? If the exterior is good you may not see another one for a long time.

@CALNNC posted:

I believe Trainz will make good on your purchase in some manner.

Oh, 100% I'm not worried about Trainz working with me to find a solution. I'm borderline embarrassed about how much I've purchased from Scott and company over the years (not to mention York), and there have been a couple times that stuff was broken in transit, or things didn't run properly, and they've never failed to make it right a single time.

I'm thinking I'm just going to ask them to trade this one for one of the other two they have for sale that *haven't* been upgraded yet, and I'll handle the PS3 upgrade myself. There are enough people here and on YouTube who have done that upgrade that I'm confident I can either do it myself or pay someone to do it for me.

Well, as you know, the internal size makes this one of the easier models to upgrade.  You will need two PS/3 diesel boards as the lead engine and the big turbine section each need a board.

I actually used a board that was partially cooked for the big middle unit.  It had lost a bunch of it's lights due to a pinched wire and they were non-repairable.  So, I had an essentially free board for the middle unit as it doesn't have any lights but motor drive, smoke, and sound were all functional.

I did notice something amusing when I was looking at my video of right after I "completed" this re-upgrade.  The rear smoke unit wasn't working!  In my haste to put it on the tracks after I got all the smoke units installed and everything rewired, I forgot to wire the second smoke unit in the 80B turbine section!

Notice in the 3rd shot that the rear smoke unit is missing something, maybe needs some wires!   We'll be fixing that tomorrow.

I had to make the stack extension for the rear smoke unit, I didn't see anything like this for sale on the MTH parts site.

The speaker is in the shell, and you can see my note about the lights.

BTW, since it sounds like they ripped this out, this is what the funnel looks like in the 80B center unit.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, as you know, the internal size makes this one of the easier models to upgrade.  You will need two PS/3 diesel boards as the lead engine and the big turbine section each need a board.

So, if I'm thinking through it right that means you don't need the tether at all between the A-unit and the B-unit, because you are running them as separate engines in a lash-up, but you keep the tether between the B-unit and the tender to run the lights and the coupler?

@J.Dooley posted:

So, if I'm thinking through it right that means you don't need the tether at all between the A-unit and the B-unit, because you are running them as separate engines in a lash-up, but you keep the tether between the B-unit and the tender to run the lights and the coupler?

Correct, no tether between the lead unit and the turbine unit, the tender retains the existing 4-pin tether between it and the turbine unit.