Ceiling layout design feedback wanted...

Ive been building and rebuilding something similar since January in a bedroom. I’ve learned many things from the experience. I think you have a lot of good ideas. I did much research like you, many YouTube videos. Everything is harder 7 and a half feet up in the air on a stool. Much harder.

Initially I started with lionel fastrack, but it was so loud I switched over to Atlas which is solid metal, not hollow, then used high density foam sound roadbed from an ebay seller named sparks00033, then underneath that I have various thicknesses of the pink foam insulation board. Grade changes come from the insulation board on top of the level shelves. Much quieter now, but still not perfect. For the moment I soldered the curves, then have feeder wires where curves meet straights.

The Bedroom is square shaped, my shelves are around 8” deep, then the corners are gusseted to around 23” from the corner to accommodate a 72” radius curve in each of the four corners. It was important for me to not make the room feel claustrophobic, but also to accommodate a Big Boy, I think I succeeded. Part of my goal too, was that this project is using space that was otherwise un-utilized. The shelving follows the perimeter of the room. I used a laser level to keep things level as I could on each of the four walls so the shelving was level and grades changes were zero so when the perimeter of shelving was closed it met up. I can confirm that a house is not square, there will be bows in walls you can’t see easily until a shelf is put in place, this includes the ceiling.

I used 3/4 baltic birch plywood, then used L brackets screwed into studs. Where the shelves meet I did kreg jig pocket holes, glue. In my mind any mistakes made anywhere means a heavy loco becoming a 20 plus pound missile that could hurt someone. I would consider how deep into the shelf the track will set/work, then the viewing angle of a person at the lowest position so the train isn’t obscured by shelf. I built mine to amuse my toddler daughter, I wanted her to see it as much as possible from the floor. I ended up using a trim router and beveling the top edge of the shelf.

To figure out dimensions, track work , track quantities etc, I used scarm.

Hope you find some of this info helpful/encouraging.

I question the use of MDF.  Could get sags between brackets or rippling.

@ogaugenut posted:

I question the use of MDF.  Could get sags between brackets or rippling.

Yes, I have "experience" with MDF shelving and agree, but the crown molding will prevent the shelf from sagging.

@DaddyChooChoo posted:

Ive been building and rebuilding something similar since January in a bedroom. I’ve learned many things from the experience. I think you have a lot of good ideas. I did much research like you, many YouTube videos. Everything is harder 7 and a half feet up in the air on a stool. Much harder.

Initially I started with lionel fastrack, but it was so loud I switched over to Atlas which is solid metal, not hollow, then used high density foam sound roadbed from an ebay seller named sparks00033, then underneath that I have various thicknesses of the pink foam insulation board. Grade changes come from the insulation board on top of the level shelves. Much quieter now, but still not perfect. For the moment I soldered the curves, then have feeder wires where curves meet straights.

The Bedroom is square shaped, my shelves are around 8” deep, then the corners are gusseted to around 23” from the corner to accommodate a 72” radius curve in each of the four corners. It was important for me to not make the room feel claustrophobic, but also to accommodate a Big Boy, I think I succeeded. Part of my goal too, was that this project is using space that was otherwise un-utilized. The shelving follows the perimeter of the room. I used a laser level to keep things level as I could on each of the four walls so the shelving was level and grades changes were zero so when the perimeter of shelving was closed it met up. I can confirm that a house is not square, there will be bows in walls you can’t see easily until a shelf is put in place, this includes the ceiling.

I used 3/4 baltic birch plywood, then used L brackets screwed into studs. Where the shelves meet I did kreg jig pocket holes, glue. In my mind any mistakes made anywhere means a heavy loco becoming a 20 plus pound missile that could hurt someone. I would consider how deep into the shelf the track will set/work, then the viewing angle of a person at the lowest position so the train isn’t obscured by shelf. I built mine to amuse my toddler daughter, I wanted her to see it as much as possible from the floor. I ended up using a trim router and beveling the top edge of the shelf.

To figure out dimensions, track work , track quantities etc, I used scarm.

Hope you find some of this info helpful/encouraging.

Thanks very much for taking the time to write that. May I ask roughly how large the room is, and how far down from the ceiling the top of the shelf is? Are you planning on adding a backdrop or flats on the wall behind the train?

@Garfield Irwin posted:

Thanks very much for taking the time to write that. May I ask roughly how large the room is, and how far down from the ceiling the top of the shelf is? Are you planning on adding a backdrop or flats on the wall behind the train?

The room is approx 10' x 10'. Shelf is 12.5" to 13" from the ceiling, then I have pink insulation foam board on top of that, I needed to add a 3% grade to expand into a closet on one side of the room and avoid some support beams inside the closet wall, still working on that and the final grade and final trackwork placement and securing it down. Since it is a fairly tight space I wanted to attempt to make sure the viewer can see from a low viewing angle, but I also wanted to fit medium tall things like a water tower for thirsty steam choochoos. There is currently a loop around the main room perimeter, then some switches on the closet wall side to have another expanded section that will go through the closet and then back around to the main loop. The foam board will also be utilized to add below track scenery options(culverts, rockwork, streambeds, trestles, etc), dream being something southwestern inspired, kind of like Dave Meeks ThunderMesaStudio on YouTube. I haven't gotten too much into scenery work yet, still working on the foundational shelf and track laying elements. I think I will go with some building flats, if I can find some I like, I'm even considering having some peninsula type protrusions that I attach later to the shelfwork then add light weight building(s) or water tower type items onto that, might be too tacky looking or claustrophobic for the room though. Thinking of painting the ceiling and also the above the shelf walls a light sky blue, maybe add some clouds, perhaps adding a photo style backdrop to the walls. There's not a lot of room for scenery options even with a 8" deep shelf, also on turns the big boy boiler over hang sweeps into the corners where there is a little more space, but not much. Have also considered the LED lighting strips to be able to change the mood or ambiance.

@DaddyChooChoo posted:

The room is approx 10' x 10'. Shelf is 12.5" to 13" from the ceiling, then I have pink insulation foam board on top of that, I needed to add a 3% grade to expand into a closet on one side of the room and avoid some support beams inside the closet wall, still working on that and the final grade and final trackwork placement and securing it down. Since it is a fairly tight space I wanted to attempt to make sure the viewer can see from a low viewing angle, but I also wanted to fit medium tall things like a water tower for thirsty steam choochoos. There is currently a loop around the main room perimeter, then some switches on the closet wall side to have another expanded section that will go through the closet and then back around to the main loop. The foam board will also be utilized to add below track scenery options(culverts, rockwork, streambeds, trestles, etc), dream being something southwestern inspired, kind of like Dave Meeks ThunderMesaStudio on YouTube. I haven't gotten too much into scenery work yet, still working on the foundational shelf and track laying elements. I think I will go with some building flats, if I can find some I like, I'm even considering having some peninsula type protrusions that I attach later to the shelfwork then add light weight building(s) or water tower type items onto that, might be too tacky looking or claustrophobic for the room though. Thinking of painting the ceiling and also the above the shelf walls a light sky blue, maybe add some clouds, perhaps adding a photo style backdrop to the walls. There's not a lot of room for scenery options even with a 8" deep shelf, also on turns the big boy boiler over hang sweeps into the corners where there is a little more space, but not much. Have also considered the LED lighting strips to be able to change the mood or ambiance.

Thank you for the additional detail. At 13" you have, relatively, a lot more height to work with -- makes a big difference. It's nice to be able to add some small structures and scenic details here and there...I might be able to squeeze something in behind in the corners but it won't be much. Building flats/viaduct arches/wall details etc. would add a lot of interest I would think. I'm also going to try to stick to O-72 curves to accommodate a Big Boy in the future. ;-)

Really appreciate your thoughts -- thanks!

Garfield

I built a round the room G layout on wire closet shelving in my 10 ft by 11 ft bedroom about 20 years ago.

It was a bad idea, too hard to reach, too noisy etc.

I had to cable tie the track to the wire shelving to keep it from moving or coming apart.

Was not easy to add building or scenery touches, so boring to watch.

I took it down to repaint and then did not feel like it putting back up.

Too much track for such a small area, I felt.

I still have all the parts and may reinstall it in a much larger room 19 ft by 20 ft for better viewing and scenery.

My shelf layout runs the whole house. Used 1/2" whitewood as the base, then high density foam "ballast" from an eBay seller, and use Gargrave's track. Fixed radiuses, and the flexible straight pieces. Does not flex easily like HO track. I tried to make a radius... ended up using the fixed pieces. Saved me time. Straight flex track allowed me to make small adjustments where needed. I also put LED strips along the back side up against the wall. Don't see the individual LEDs, almost looks like its in a diffuser.  Wish I went with a bigger radius ( next house I will ) , currently using 0-54 as that is what the SP daylight required.

I used Any Rail to plan my layout.

Even with a cleaning car, it still needs a good hand scrub here and there to really get it clean. I just spent a few hours doing just that yesterday. Ladder and going around the house. I eventually want to make a vacuum car.

Used a laser and marked the walls for the wood base piece. 1" x  3/4" . Then made these supports from wood and put in the middle of every base section of layout. No metal L brackets. Been doing well for 5+ years that I have had it up.  11.5" from ceiling to wood base of layout. Wanted low as possible, but not below windows. 4.5" in width of base pieces.

Run a 14GA buss wire. About every 3 ft of track, I soldered wire to the rails and then to the buss wire. I use the MTH WIU / TIU unit. Haven't had any issues with signals.   Recently added 3 more Ross switches and wired them all up to an AIU.  ITs all setup in the master closet. I can walk the house with the tablet and have total control over the trains and the switches. I lock the scale mph at 20. That way I don't accidently bump it to 100 and then have to catch a train. I didnt like Gargraves track pins with the jumper wires to add power. To me, it spaced the track sections too far apart. I wanted the minimal gap. Used a dremel and rough up middle and outer rail, added my own jumpers, closed the gap between pieces.

I wanted to do G, but the price of track made re-think my plan, and at the time I did not know Gargrave's existed. Much cheaper and works well.  I guess I am one of the lucky few that wife was ok with me putting holes in the wall for my layout. Went around and made wooden tunnel cutouts to make it look better. Still fine tuning a few of them.  Limited on scenery adding scenery.  Working on an HO shelf layout. About to start putting plaster cloth down to work on some hills and mountains.

Few pix, if they will post. I created another post and images did not display.

Led strips behind the track. Can change the color with phone or Alexa.

How I built layout with wood supports.

Have a loop in the master bedroom. The click clack of the cars puts the wife to sleep. Other times its turn it off... I cant hear the tv lol.

Used an HO bridge and scaled it up with a program. I can't remember off top of my head. Uses a printer and you match the paper sections up. Fun build. Also how I got the curves in the corners of my layout. Ill have to look up the program. Its free.

Adding switches is... fun... Adding a 054 wye and std switch for Son's room for Thomas and others to loop in his room.

My Son's room. Just added switch and side rail for Thomas. Currently working on an HO that loops around this room only.

Need any more info or images of build or setup let me know. I need to put a camera on a car soon. I have a few videos if interested. Just let me know.

Tug

@totrainyard posted:

I built a round the room G layout on wire closet shelving in my 10 ft by 11 ft bedroom about 20 years ago.

It was a bad idea, too hard to reach, too noisy etc.

I had to cable tie the track to the wire shelving to keep it from moving or coming apart.

Was not easy to add building or scenery touches, so boring to watch.

I took it down to repaint and then did not feel like it putting back up.

Too much track for such a small area, I felt.

I still have all the parts and may reinstall it in a much larger room 19 ft by 20 ft for better viewing and scenery.

Thanks for your thoughts. I understand the limitations of a ceiling layout which is why I want to keep it as simple as possible -- a single loop of track on a narrow shelf for visibility. No operational possibilities obviously, but it would be a conversation piece during holiday gatherings and may be my only opportunity to run big equipment on a continuous run layout.

@Tugboat15 posted:

My shelf layout runs the whole house. Used 1/2" whitewood as the base, then high density foam "ballast" from an eBay seller, and use Gargrave's track. Fixed radiuses, and the flexible straight pieces. Does not flex easily like HO track. I tried to make a radius... ended up using the fixed pieces. Saved me time. Straight flex track allowed me to make small adjustments where needed. I also put LED strips along the back side up against the wall. Don't see the individual LEDs, almost looks like its in a diffuser.  Wish I went with a bigger radius ( next house I will ) , currently using 0-54 as that is what the SP daylight required.

I used Any Rail to plan my layout.

Even with a cleaning car, it still needs a good hand scrub here and there to really get it clean. I just spent a few hours doing just that yesterday. Ladder and going around the house. I eventually want to make a vacuum car.

Used a laser and marked the walls for the wood base piece. 1" x  3/4" . Then made these supports from wood and put in the middle of every base section of layout. No metal L brackets. Been doing well for 5+ years that I have had it up.  11.5" from ceiling to wood base of layout. Wanted low as possible, but not below windows. 4.5" in width of base pieces.

Run a 14GA buss wire. About every 3 ft of track, I soldered wire to the rails and then to the buss wire. I use the MTH WIU / TIU unit. Haven't had any issues with signals.   Recently added 3 more Ross switches and wired them all up to an AIU.  ITs all setup in the master closet. I can walk the house with the tablet and have total control over the trains and the switches. I lock the scale mph at 20. That way I don't accidently bump it to 100 and then have to catch a train. I didnt like Gargraves track pins with the jumper wires to add power. To me, it spaced the track sections too far apart. I wanted the minimal gap. Used a dremel and rough up middle and outer rail, added my own jumpers, closed the gap between pieces.

I wanted to do G, but the price of track made re-think my plan, and at the time I did not know Gargrave's existed. Much cheaper and works well.  I guess I am one of the lucky few that wife was ok with me putting holes in the wall for my layout. Went around and made wooden tunnel cutouts to make it look better. Still fine tuning a few of them.  Limited on scenery adding scenery.  Working on an HO shelf layout. About to start putting plaster cloth down to work on some hills and mountains.

Few pix, if they will post. I created another post and images did not display.

Led strips behind the track. Can change the color with phone or Alexa.

How I built layout with wood supports.

Have a loop in the master bedroom. The click clack of the cars puts the wife to sleep. Other times its turn it off... I cant hear the tv lol.

Used an HO bridge and scaled it up with a program. I can't remember off top of my head. Uses a printer and you match the paper sections up. Fun build. Also how I got the curves in the corners of my layout. Ill have to look up the program. Its free.

Adding switches is... fun... Adding a 054 wye and std switch for Son's room for Thomas and others to loop in his room.

My Son's room. Just added switch and side rail for Thomas. Currently working on an HO that loops around this room only.

Need any more info or images of build or setup let me know. I need to put a camera on a car soon. I have a few videos if interested. Just let me know.

Tug

Thanks for posting Tug! That's quite an ambitious ceiling layout you have there. I want to stay with a simple loop due to the limitations of space and challenges around operationalizing a ceiling layout. I also don't want to have to do major repairs when we sell the house in a few years.

I've decided on O-72 curves though. I've also decided on fixed track sections for the curves as you suggested -- given the tight spaces I don't want to fuss with flex track.

Are you happy with the 4.5" wide shelves? 4.5" will leave 2" between the track and the wall which from what I've read is the bare minimum for longer locomotives negotiating O-72 curves. I also want to be able to add a thin backdrop and LED lighting so that 2" gap is critical.

I've also since dropped the idea of the crown moulding since I don't have enough vertical space above the door and windows to accommodate it. I'm now thinking of using widely spaced shelf brackets screwed into studs supplemented with 90-degree furniture support brackets in-between the long runs to prevent shelf sag.

Tugboat that layout is awesome

With you (and I now) wanting to run 0-72s, I would make a wider shelf. I bought a 4x8 sheet of wood, laid the track and foam under it, then went with how many strips could I get per sheet. My current setup, the buss wire and led strip fight for space sometimes. What I will do on the next build, is find some plastic C channel. That way I can mount the LED strip on top of the wire.  My wooden supports do well. One per each section. Base screws into the support, then it rests on the strip mounted to wall, and lower part rests on the drywall.

My Premier daylight touched the wall in a two places during the swing. Top rear of the cab would touch the wall. Had to tweak track in a few spots.  So anything bigger, I would need a wider shelf, and larger radius track to help with the overhang.

Original setup, it ran just the house. Then I wanted it loop in the master. Luckily I scored a pair of Ross switches on ebay.  I do have a steam setup and a diesel setup. I have been poking around with the idea of adding a 2nd track in the master. 

If I were to do just one room, I would be running 2 tracks. My current side track is the addon in the master. I love the full MTH DCS system.  I went with MTH as the closest hobby shop carried more of their product and very little of Lionel. There are some beautiful Lionel engines I would like to have.

Would be more work, but on my Son's room with the HO layout. It used to be 2 different levels. No incline with the woodlands foam as seen in picture. The rear level was lets say 4" higher. That way I could see the train as its further back on the shelf. I then had an N scale running on the outer side of the shelf. Took the N out for a tabletop layout, so HO will eventually run along the outer base as well.

Saying with a wider base, not going to see as much of the train thats closer to the wall as the wood base will block view from certain areas.

I'll add in some considerations others said but in a different way. I went as low as I could while still allowing the tallest person to walk under it (me!). I built in a basement spanning 3 rooms so I was not too worried about tucking it up. The height allows room for scenery, some buildings and other things of interest -

If you want more here is my YT Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@TheFailroad

Minimum curves are O72. Good luck!

@Tugboat15 posted:

Saying with a wider base, not going to see as much of the train thats closer to the wall as the wood base will block view from certain areas.

That's the reason I struggle with the idea of a dual-track. I've decided a 6" nominal (5.3" actual) MDF board will support my goal of a single track with O-72 curves. Going with a double-track would require at least an 8" shelf...but by then any thoughts of a backdrop are superfluous, and it would be hard to appreciate the train on the far track anyway at the height we're talking out. Maybe as a siding to park a second train perhaps?

@Rollsington posted:

I'll add in some considerations others said but in a different way. I went as low as I could while still allowing the tallest person to walk under it (me!). I built in a basement spanning 3 rooms so I was not too worried about tucking it up. The height allows room for scenery, some buildings and other things of interest -

If you want more here is my YT Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@TheFailroad

Minimum curves are O72. Good luck!

Thanks for posting this interesting concept. I've seen some impressive "narrow-shelf-around-the-wall-at-eye-level" layouts, but your's seems to fit in-between that and a typical ceiling layout. It seems the main benefit of your design is to have a lot of "wall" to run long trains, but provide more practical double-track options.

In a sense, the small 8' x 8' x 11' shelf switching layout I'm working on fits this bill -- the shelf widths are 8", 12" and 20" and I'm planning on setting the shelf height to 57" or so.

My mistakes were making the corners as large and sweeping as I could, it is hard to reach the corners to do scenery, and putting in the backdrop AFTER the shelving and track was put up. No fun!

I have some O89 curves and big trains look great, but yeah, getting into the corners is brutal.

I did a raised layout some things to consider.

O72, you will want it one day.

I used plywood in the corners for shape, but for the straight 1X12 (3/4 x11) pine.   In the end cheaper than plywood overall, easy cut to length.  A lot of choices in 1 x ? width.

Paint before you install.

Measure, plan, measure again, double check the plan.   Then build.

Power, I just ran a wire bundle enclosed in plastic conduit in a corner.   Easy to conceal as desired.

Many ways to deaden sound.   I used flame resistant neoprene foam and  then used my track clamps to hold the track on the sound deadner.      Modern engines can run slow and quiet if you want to have conversation.   

Have a good step ladder.  My example

My biggest problem,  Good quality screws that would not strip out the head or break the head off when put into plywood.  Long story, not all screws are made the same.

Measuring from the floor/ceiling may not be level.   I used a inexpensive laser leveler to set the height.  I had to darken the room to see it well on the wall.   

Most people don't look above 7' or 2 meters.   I usually have to point out the train for people to see it.   The corner moulding may be more for you.

I added a volt and amp meter so I could see the track had power.   It is important to check power, tripped breaker from derail etc.

@Rollsington posted:

My mistakes were making the corners as large and sweeping as I could, it is hard to reach the corners to do scenery, and putting in the backdrop AFTER the shelving and track was put up. No fun!

I have some O89 curves and big trains look great, but yeah, getting into the corners is brutal.

Thanks -- I'm sticking with O-72 curves for sure and don't plan on sticking much else in the corners since I don't think you'd see much back there anyway.

@VHubbard posted:

I did a raised layout some things to consider.

O72, you will want it one day.

I used plywood in the corners for shape, but for the straight 1X12 (3/4 x11) pine.   In the end cheaper than plywood overall, easy cut to length.  A lot of choices in 1 x ? width.

Paint before you install.

Measure, plan, measure again, double check the plan.   Then build.

Power, I just ran a wire bundle enclosed in plastic conduit in a corner.   Easy to conceal as desired.

Many ways to deaden sound.   I used flame resistant neoprene foam and  then used my track clamps to hold the track on the sound deadner.      Modern engines can run slow and quiet if you want to have conversation.   

Have a good step ladder.  My example

My biggest problem,  Good quality screws that would not strip out the head or break the head off when put into plywood.  Long story, not all screws are made the same.

Measuring from the floor/ceiling may not be level.   I used a inexpensive laser leveler to set the height.  I had to darken the room to see it well on the wall.   

Most people don't look above 7' or 2 meters.   I usually have to point out the train for people to see it.   The corner moulding may be more for you.

I added a volt and amp meter so I could see the track had power.   It is important to check power, tripped breaker from derail etc.

Thanks for the comments!

Yes, I've definitely settled on the O-72 curves.

I'm going to use MDF because it's cheap and the shelfs come pre-painted (base coat anyway), but it will be well supported.

Still not sure about the wiring...it's easy enough to have a duplex plug installed up on the wall, but I may need a way to get some additional wires up there from the transformer/controller depending on the system (TMCC/DCS) so a small conduit in the corner painted to match the wall may work well enough -- it will be mostly hidden by the TV in the corner anyway.

I'm considering spending the extra $$$ on atlas track to help keep the noise to a minimum (solid rails) -- that and some cork or high density foam should do the trick. I don't run my trains fast, which is a big help.

Turns out I don't have room for crown moulding so am looking at running a 3" stringer below the main shelf, both for esthetics and to provide full length support for the main 6" shelf, supplemented with brackets like this...

I have had 2 around the walls layouts at the 5 ft level, and 14 inches deep at the most,  both were double tracks with crossovers.  The first was nothing more than metal shelf brackets screwed into a concrete block wall in a shop, holding up 1 X 12's.  My second is more open grid.  Double tracks allows things like signals to be integrated into the plan, and anything to break the monotony since you can't have yards or more than a couple short sidings in the corners to feed a business, helps.  I would also place a couple diamonds in it, the track going into the wall and off the board which allows for more signaling for an imaginary train the mainliner had to wait for.    In a near ceiling height loop, you really can't see anything but the train making circles, if that is the goal, then everything is perfect.   To have a double track up high, well, you would never see the other the train on the outside loop.  Did you ever consider a lower layout that was integral will things like chests of drawers,  book cabinets, bed headboards, shelves on a desk, things that are about 4-5 feet up around the room and would fit under a wall layout? Lift outs or bridges at closets and doorways would of course be necessary.  At the one window in my loft train room, I have a double track steel arch bridge across it,  that does not interfere with natural  lighting or the air conditioner that is in the window.

@CALNNC posted:

I have had 2 around the walls layouts at the 5 ft level, and 14 inches deep at the most,  both were double tracks with crossovers.  The first was nothing more than metal shelf brackets screwed into a concrete block wall in a shop, holding up 1 X 12's.  My second is more open grid.  Double tracks allows things like signals to be integrated into the plan, and anything to break the monotony since you can't have yards or more than a couple short sidings in the corners to feed a business, helps.  I would also place a couple diamonds in it, the track going into the wall and off the board which allows for more signaling for an imaginary train the mainliner had to wait for.    In a near ceiling height loop, you really can't see anything but the train making circles, if that is the goal, then everything is perfect.   To have a double track up high, well, you would never see the other the train on the outside loop.  Did you ever consider a lower layout that was integral will things like chests of drawers,  book cabinets, bed headboards, shelves on a desk, things that are about 4-5 feet up around the room and would fit under a wall layout? Lift outs or bridges at closets and doorways would of course be necessary.  At the one window in my loft train room, I have a double track steel arch bridge across it,  that does not interfere with natural  lighting or the air conditioner that is in the window.

I agree with many of your suggestions but don't have any options: the main floor family room this is going in is heavily used with the main TV, fireplace and walkout to the deck/back yard, so the only place for the train is 7 feet up around the ceiling; hence a single loop of track is all that is practical.