CIWL Trains from MTH Sets

Would be interested in hearing more about the MTH model.

Vernie:  Welcome to the forum !   I share your interest in CIWL history [ although I'd hesitate before calling it an obsession ], and in that spirit I'd like to offer a few comments:
  1.  Baggage container cars were present from the 9/26 introduction of the train, it's just that they belonged to the Nord, and were painted green.  They were augmented by the three CIWL creme/brown ones which appeared a little later, and which were very similar to the Nord ones.  I believe in 1932 the CIWL ones were painted solid blue, the reasoning being that it was difficult to keep the lighter color clean on a vehicle that usually followed the locomotive.  This information appeared in the article on the Arrow that appeared in "Voies Ferrees" 12/90.  Interestingly, photos taken of the train in 1927 and 1930 show the truck to be a solid color, so perhaps the Nord cars were pooled with the CIWL ones.  I've seen no mention of a CIWL baggage car when the train was exclusively Pullman before the war, but would welcome that info.*

2.  While of course the "couplage" was the normal building block, I don't think the coupling arrangements within the pair were anything but standard.  In those cases  where an odd number of Pullmans were required, and the train also carried a WR [ dining car ] , the WP would be paired with it, as an example.

With best regards, SZ

*Of course our modelling doesn't always have to follow prototype practice;  to paraphrase the director John Ford, "We don't have to model trains as they were -- we can model them as they should have been."

Vernie:  Those are excellent photos -- thank you for posting them.  It is a lot easier* to model a 'correct' Golden Arrow in HO than in 0, although MTH hasn't done too bad a job for the 'blue' immediate prewar period;  they could even do the second class Pullmans [ that were converted from the 1st cl ones modelled ] with no retooling, since they already have the incorrect second class interiors. [ * especially in the sense, 'far less expensive' ]

    I hope you'll have the opportunity to post more photos, etc.

 

Best regards, SZ 

 

We now return you to your usual steam programming -- I see at 1148 765 was doing 27 mph between 'the curve' and the tunnels.

Hi SZ, After letting the little grey cells do their job, I think this series of photos will confirm your information.

Nord container (green?) ^

Nord Container^

No fourgon ^

 

1926 Inaugural Fleche d'Or ^ Nord container

Nord Container ^

 

In 1928 the three CIWL Fourgon Trucks were delivered for use on the Golden Arrow/

SS Canterberry/ Fleche d'Or. They were painted Dark Blue and cream (Calais-Bruxelles

Express livery) and Brown and Cream for the Fleche d'Or. In 1932, they were painted

Dark Blue. In my previous set of photos,please note the WL logo on the dark blue

fourgon/trucks as compared to the CIWL crest on the two tone Fourgon/truck.

 

 

The only that I speculated that the Fleche d'Or had a fourgon on the rear of the train,

was because of the information given by the 1995 Rivarossi catalog. Also the inclusion of the brown and cream fourgons in both the MTH and Rivarossi sets.

The picture of the Fleche d'Or in the Paris station (above) shows the Pullman train with

what appears to be an end-of-train light.

George Behrend does not list any fourgons for the Fleche d'Or.

My question would be, was the 1929 Fleche d'Or so exclusive that passengers were only

allowed to board at Vicoria Station, London and disembark at Paris or could passengers board at Calais and disembark at Paris. If so, what happened to their checked luggage?

They were allowed 300 lbs! Was it put in the Fourgon Truck crew compartment?

 

 

Thank you for director, John Ford's quote. Orson Wells said production of a

motion picture is like a model train. It is always derailing and breaking down

and we are always having to stop and fix it.

I will use John Ford's quote and give my tiny Fleche d'Or passengers an extra

fourgon.

Vernie

  The statements about prototypes in the catalogues and related publications of many of the mass-produced toy train mfgs always have to be taken with a bit of skepticism;  part of this is due to them wanting to sell what they make, of course.

   And the skepticism also applies to other items as well;  for example, the photo in your previous post where its caption says it was taken in 1926.  Since the 'blue train' [ Calais-Med ] wasn't combined with the Arrow until 1931 or later, that's immediately suspicious, but the confirmation that it is 1931 or later is the locomotive;  even if the number is illegible, Nord Pacifics with that style of running board were not built until 1931.

   Regarding luggage vans at both ends:  Many Continental railways in the 1920's and before were required by the regulating authority or law to have a non-passenger carrying car immediately behind the locomotive [ since in the wooden car era that was one of the most vunerable ].  At stub-end terminal stations all through trains reversed direction [ and there was much more of that then than now ], so the new locomotive backing onto the 'rear' of the consist would often have another baggage car, making two in the train.  In other instances the consist would run throughout with a baggage at each end. [ The "protective coach" did not have to be a luggage van;  it could be a postal car or an unoccupied passenger car, as examples.]  In the case of Pullman trains, the 'second' baggage was sometimes a non-CIWL vehicle -- and although it was not a CIWL train, the Rheingold was a textbook example of that practice.

Rivarossi may have assumed that since other Pullmans ran with two baggages, the Arrow 'must' have done also.

    As far as passengers boarding in Calais for Paris and vv, that would I think depend more on the passport, etc control arrangements than the railway itself.  The WP's had a space for luggage at one end in place of a WC.

    Hope that helps.

Best, SZ

Vernie

 

This information is very welcome, as is your presence in the Forum. One small suggestion: The initials CIWL are not commonly used in the United States. It would be helpful to your readers on this side of the Atlantic if you were to refer to "Wagons-Lits" in the title. This term is much more likely to be recognized. Any American model railroader who is interested in European trains will know Wagons-Lits. 

Google CIWL and all mysteries are revealed.

Vernie:   Thanks for the latest post.

1. I think Intraflug painted that baggage in brown / creme to match some other cars that they had in those colors.  I'll need to dig out some slides.

    The colors that the various 'historic' car operators paint their cars often has no relationship to their history. [ I think that's OK, incidently;  it's their car, their money -- and they usually have a reason, perhaps a more uniform look to their cars.]

 

2.  I know about that 2009 book, but don't have a copy.  The "1934" consist is interesting:

   -  At times in the depression years the sb Arrow also carried cars for the Simplon-Orient and Rome Expresses, which would explain the two Z class -- but where are the Lx cars for the 'train bleu' ?   And to me the baggage if CIWL would be solid blue, since it is presumably going with one of those three trains ?   I'm also surprised that the second class Pullmans would not be next to the [ second class ] sleepers, if the sleeper psgrs are allowed to dine in a Pullman in lieu of no WR ? Does the book have any text supporting the diagrams of the formations ?

   -  Maybe you could post some other diagrams from the book ?  It could give owners of the various MTH "Orient" sets some ideas on different combinations they could "legally" use.

 

Best rgds, SZ

The book has extensive histories of the trains but it is written in French, which I can't translate. I also have a copy of "Die Geschichte der CIWL - Die Pullman-Wagen" by

Renzo Perret. This book is in German and also describes all the Pullman trains, but I

can't read German.

A related question?:

How were the wagons numbered with this six sided plaque?

The Venice Simplon Orient Express uses letters but how

were the Wagons Lits trains numbered? For instance, on

the Fleche d'Or,were every pullman chair was assigned,

were the wagons numbered 1 thru 10 starting behind the

fourgon truck?

How were the Calais Mediterranee Express wagons numbered?

Were the diners designated with a R like the 4141 here?

I can't find an answer in any of my books.

 

Vernie

^ This (in red box) seems to confirm the Rivarossi consist info.

 

As per Steinzeit's request, here are some pages from the French and German books.

 

 

^ This from a very rare book suplement  by George Behrend

 

 

 

I have a brass set of CIWL cars in one gauge as well as the MTH CIWL 5 car blue and cream set in O gauge.  This is not the forum for discussion of one gauge, but as to the MTH CIWL cars, I believe they are well done, and an outstanding value at their pricepoint. It is too bad MTH only offers these cars in five car sets.  A set of these cars in brass could leave your budget in shambles and your wife in tears.

 

My only complaint with MTH so far is that I have been waiting and waiting and waiting for their much advertised French 231E Chapelon Pacific locomotive.

 

Bob

Hi Bob,

 

I have several Pacifics and love them.

I model H0 but I have the MTH set as a static display so that's why I'm featuring the

MTH models. I just saw the 241A this morning at http://mthtrains.com/news/468

At the risk of incurring the rath of the O gauge police, here is my 241 loco as motive power for the Calais Mediterranee Express (Blue Train)

 

This is my favorite locomotive.

Vernie

Vernie:

  1.  I don't know how cars were numbered [ for seat resv purposes ] back in the all-CIWL days.    I do know that all-Pullman trains in the UK used letters -- but the letters might not be fully sequential, eg, there might be gaps to allow for cars that did not run every day of the week, cars added at peak demands, etc.

     I think the alpha-numeric example of the VSOE stems from British Railways practice.

  2.  The additional references you posted say or suggest that if / when two baggage vehicles were used, both of them were Nord Rwy, and at least one was the container truck [ prior to the advent of the CIWL ones ].

    I wonder if the "all brown" container truck statement** stems from b&w photos of Nord trucks ?

 

Best rgds, SZ

 

**Edited to add:  I have since read in a French on-line forum [ 174 pages on just one thread -- and in French......] that the source for the information on the trucks being all brown before they were all blue seems to be M. Roger Commault, dean of CIWL historians and a former employee -- so all brown they were.

The Ferry is the Cote d'Azure, not the Canterbury.

Here is an old post card (date unknown) that shows a fourgon before the introduction of the fourgon-truck.