DCS Problems signals from10 to 3 and more

@mike g. posted:

I sure hope someone has some suggestions as everything was running find last week when I ran them. I did have a little short, but it did not trip any breakers before I was able to kill the power!

So there was a short circuit, but the breakers didn't trip? Sounds like that short damaged the TIU channel. If you try a different channel and everything goes back to normal then the TIU channel you are currently running has an issue, probably caused by the short that didn't trip the breaker. What kind of power source and circuit breaker do you have?

Hi Lou, I am running power with a Z4000 with 5 amp breakers between the TIU. The thing is it is on both fixed out puts. I have one section of track that reads 10's and the engine runs fine. I am asking here as i am tired of banging my head against the wall! LOL

The one track that reads 10's is on #1 fixed output with all my other track on my lower level. But it's not reading the engine on #2 fixed output for my upper level.

does the TIU have power when you're testing fixed out # 2?

try swapping out the channels and see if the other loop of track then works.

I didnt check at the TIU, the red light is on!

Let me run out and check on the power and I will get back to you!

Hi Joe, I checked power to both outputs and it matches the Z4000, I also found out if I move each engine to the outer loop the TIU finds them and adds them.

Did you try swapping channels as Engineer Joe suggested?

Not yet, the CEO said it was dinner time. I will check it later or in the morning.

Let's just recap a few known things about TIUs.

#1 they need power to operate the internal electronics. There are 2 basic methods to get this power- channel1 fixed input the tiu logic can borrow power, or AUX power in, the little round coaxial power jack on the end of the TIU. So as such, you did not mention an AUX in power supply when describing your system so we assume that then means you must always power channel 1, whenever you want to use channel 2.

Ok, so let's say you knew that or already were doing that -always ensuring fixed channel 1 had power in- or you actually do have an aux power wall adapter plugged in. In other words, we know beyond any shadow of doubt the TIU has constant power and the red power light is on inside the TIU.

#2 Then, even a minor short, derailment, accident, can cause damage to the DCS signal generator portion of the TIU on a given channel. So it's entirely possible you damaged one of your channels- example fixed2, and so whatever track is connected to that channel might then have low signal- not be able to find engines and so on.

That leads to...

#3 You can swap tracks between TIU outputs. Giant Caveat here again is that the TIU must have logic power to operate. So again, based on what you have said to this point, TIU channel 1 input power must be on for your TIU to be powered and then what you would be doing is plugging in your outer loop to the TIU channel fixed1 output. Now if suddenly those same engines work fine on your outer track while it is connected to fixed1 output of the TIU- we begin to suspect you damaged TIU channel fixed2.

Again, as long as you follow the rules and the TIU logic internally has power, you could then connect and repurpose say one of the variable channels to then power your outer loop.

You can ignore TMCC/Legacy portion if you do not have it.

Hi Vernon, I am powering the TIU from an Aux power source. I use Chanel 1 for my lower level and #2 for the upper level.

The track on the outte lop on the lower level works fine. But the inner tracks have poor signal.

By chance are there any Lionel TMCC/Legacy engines on the inner tracks or powered sidings?  If so, remove them and retest.  

I have no Lionel engines, just MTH.

Great, hopefully you can perform the channel swap and then if that proves channel 2 fixed is damaged.

That then means you should be able to use one of the variable channels or fix the tiu or have it fixed.

Ok, great. Can you tell us a bit more about the track configuration, approx # of feet of track, wiring and number of drops/connections to the TIU?  

I thought he said that the lower level which includes inner and outer loops is powered by the same channel and the outer loop is working good?

My room is 12 x 24 I have about 13 switches, power drop about every 6-8'.

The outer loop and all the other track on the lower level is on fixed 2 and the upper loop is on Fixed 1

As Vernon suggested, I would swap between fixed 1 & 2 to determine if the problem stays with the track or with the TIU channel.  Let us know how it goes.

Will do that first thing in the morning!

@Porschev posted:

As Vernon suggested, I would swap between fixed 1 & 2 to determine if the problem stays with the track or with the TIU channel.  Let us know how it goes.

@Engineer-Joe posted:

try swapping out the channels and see if the other loop of track then works.

I fully acknowledge you mentioned this very early on. You also kinda went into the "is the TIU powered" detail as well.

Morning guys I just went out and switched the outputs and same thing. But I did run a little test and my ES44AC ran around the outer loop with mostly 9 & 10's. Then I ran my SD80MAC and it got mostly 1& 2's or out of range.

I am thinking a really good track cleaning then go from there, if I get out of range I am thinking just adding another power drop.

What are your thoughts?

One thing I did notice this morning is that a lot of the problem is in my yard area where I have the tracks on push button on/off switches so there is no power when engines are just sitting there.

Sounds like you have a lot of load and stray capacitance on that combined track system. If you have more engines on the track, lighted cars, anything that draws power, you tend to load down the DCS signal.

Also- other factors at play:

2rail/3rail trucks on engines- may or may not be getting good clean power and signal- could be at the trucks or could be at the 2r/3r switch.

PS2 I find generally has a lesser signal reception than a given PS3 engine, however, wire routing in the engine past the boards is one known change that can affect any engine and it's DCS interference.

Things you could do:

Inspect engines, toggle 2rail/3rail power switches on engines that have them, inspect the wheels and trucks, use lighter conductive oil on those bushings and contact points.

Split your track plan into blocks such that the main loop is one DCS channel, and then yards and other details are another DCS channel- possibly using your variable channels.

Another thing, and this just bit me over the last few days while testing a DCS explorer- for the first time ever, I had Legacy signal interfere with DCS. I normally get 10s all the way around using my revision L TIU. However, for testing a few scenarios, I unplugged my TIU and swapped in a DCS explorer. It was immediately obvious I could not add or detect any engines. Turning off the Legacy base, suddenly the explorer worked just fine on my track. So again, with a mixed result like that- my TIU works fine and there is no problem, and then the DCS explorer on the same track system with Legacy and there is interference.

At the same time, I have a scenario at the local club where the table is 75 feet long, making the outer loop 150+16 feet of track, and inner loops not a whole lot shorter, and yet we run a TMCC/Legacy booster and DCS and still get 10s on all 4 tracks. And, we have the booster turned up (I do have the variable control added) . Also, I'm running that TIU and all 4 channels fully passive with 22uH chokes in series with the Z4000 transformers for each track. So in theory- I'm in an not ideal scenario- and yet we do not have massive interference.

RF and signals is and can be tricky, so I know that does not help when you are having an issue and trying to figure out solutions.

Mike, you have 2 unused variable channels on your TIU. You might want to delegate one of those to just your yard area. You can still use your Z4000 just split the wiring to the 2 channels on the input side from one handle. You can change either of the variable channels to Fixed. The less area you have to cover the better when trying to diagnose these things.

Cleaning the track is my first go to. Where one engine yields 10’s and another one not so good. I’d look at cleaning the rollers and wheels on the bad one.

When DCS first came to being. A quality toggle switch was recommended for passing a good track signal. I ended up wiring my yards with as straight a wire run as I could from the terminal strips right to the track. I then cut the wire at a convenient place and inserted a relay. I control the relay with a toggle taking the DCS wiring out of the equation from going to terminal strip to toggle. Then to the track. At times it can end up being a long wire run on a good sized layout.

As you mentioned. It all worked well a while ago. If nothing has changed. I’d clean everything as mentioned and re test.

Thanks Vernon and Dave for all the information! I will look at changing my yard to a variable channel and see if I can get my tablet charged up so I can get to my DCS Companion to see how to change a variable to fixed.

First thing I am going to do is pull everything off and make sure all the wheels and rollers are clean, clean the track, and work on switching over my yard power!

Wish me luck! LOL

Mike - if you want to change a variable channel to fixed, this is the procedure from you remote:

        Menu - System - DCS Setup - Variable 1 - hit soft key FXD to set the channel to fixed.

However, you don't really need to do this just to test to see if a fixed channel is not working. You can run command from a variable channel w/o permanently changing it to fixed. Just swap the input and output from the problem fixed channel to a variable channel and make sure you bring the voltage up fast enough so the engine does not think it's being operated conventionally.

Hi guys, I just wanted to give you all an update and thank you all for the great information! Before I tell you the outcome, I please ask that you do not BAN me from this forum! LOL

First off I took the advice and moved all my yard and siding tracks to a variable channel, I fallowed Richie C. directions and made it a fixed channel. This is where you might think about BANNING me!

While doing a jumper from fixed 1 to variable 1 I noticed that I had 2 screw up's!

1. The wire that was spouse to go from fixed 2 to the upper loop was hooked up to Fixed 2 input! How it worked I have no idea but it did, not well as you all know!

2. Then while rewiring the power for the yard and sidings along with Gunrunner John's watch dog generator I realized that all the power going to the on/off push buttons was being powered right off the back of the Z4000! Once I hooked it up to the newly Fixed 2 channel everything works great!

I now have 9 & 10's across all sections of track!

As for my short that I was having my train was just long enough for me to think it was the engine, come to find out it was the last set of wheels on the very last car that was hitting the outer rail and the frog at the same time. I took Dave @darlander advice and put a piece of electrical tape along the side of the frog, and another problem fixed!

You all are the best and so full of knowledge! Everyone should be grateful to have you all here!

Thank you all so much again!

install ten amp auto blade type fuses at every input channel of the TIUs for protection.

Don't expect any protection from the Z4000.

Ignore this post if it offends you!

I have 5 Amp push button fuses at every input from the Z4000.

As GRJ is fond of saying, sometimes it's the easy stuff.

Glad you got it worked out.

@Richie C. posted:

As GRJ is fond of saying, sometimes it's the easy stuff.

Glad you got it worked out.

I would have been lost without you guy's!

Mike, I had an issue years ago with the track signal in one area. The area was fed by 2 channels isolated by a lift out bridge that was wired to one channel. Isolated from the other. At some point the weather changed and what was a small gap in the center rails at the other end  now had them touching bridging 2 channels. At some point I had blown one of the fast blow fuses.  I hadn’t realized as I had power everywhere. The TMCC engines never knew the difference. But with the rails touching  I had created one huge block that was to big trackage wise to put out a good signal for the DCS engines. So I basically had 2 issues. A bridged rail and a blown fuse. I forget the troubleshooting scenarios but it took 2 evenings to figure it out. I think what led me to the fuse issue was I disconnected the output at the TIU trying to troubleshoot it and for the life of me couldn’t figure out why I still had power to the rails in that block. I have since cut back on the center rail a bit and glued a piece of styrene between the rails.

Your not alone. It happens to all of us at some point.

Every body knows  Marines are always falling off the ship.

Larry

As a note.  If your layout worked fine before your little short and upgrade to 6.1.  That is very useful information and prevents alot of other trouble shooting items that probably are not applicable to your problem.   You also should be able to get the remote to 6.1, it probably has to do with how well your holding the on/off button.  Best to keep both software revisions the same.  Glad it was easy fix. G

I've found it's very difficult to hold the remote button down continuously for an update.  It doesn't seem like much, but sometimes the remote update stretches into ten minutes or more.  Until you've actually tried it, ten minutes of holding your thumb on that button it a VERY long time.

I made this little "tool" to keep the button pressed, makes it much easier to update remotes.  The little bump that presses the button is a stick-in rounded rubber foot.

Thanks GGG and John, I tried a clamp and it just kept saying hold button then release button then hold again. It never got past that point. I tried for 20 minutes to get it to work.

I guess I should have tried longer! LOL

You need to make sure the clamp actually holds the button in contact, that's why I put the small rounded stick-on foot on the jaw of the spring clamp.  It's normal for the process to usually ask you to push and release the button a couple of times at the start, though occasionally it works the first time.  I have never understood the vagaries of the remote upload process, I just live with it.

Thanks John, I guess I will have to try again!