DCS Programming Problem after shut down & Repower

Never seen/heard that before so I can't help.  Maybe Barry has insight on this.  G

That would be a new one on me as well.

Dave, I'm not clear.  When I use TR, I get a voltage reading, not a speed reading.

Can you describe in greater detail the steps you went through when powering on the layout, that led to the wreck?

GGG & Guns,

   Repowered every thing this morning and now all is back to running normal, got to tell ya this caused the worst wreck off the 2nd level on to the floor we have ever experienced, got to order some part for the little Atlas Angle Train for sure.

I have never seen a hand held remote control come on, with a speed of over 1000 miles an hour before, and instantly put a train into motion.  Everything happened so quickly, I could not even reach out and catch the train.  Lucky the formal living room is plush carpeted  of the breakage could have been a lot worse.

PCRR/Dave

RJR,

   I turned everything on from my switch bar, raised the handles on my Z4K & ZW, everything seemed to a be normal, I initiated power on the hand held remote, punched up TR chose the #1 track moved the wheel just slightly and all heck broke loose with a reading I never experienced before and a flying Atlas Angle Train.  After recovering the train from the floor I immediately instituted power to the TIU TR track that had my 264 Tin Plate train on it and the track was dead.  I immediately shut down everything at the power bar, returned the handles to zero on all transformers, waited 5 minutes and repowered and had to reprogram the Z4K TR and the TIU TR to make everything run correctly, I even had to reset the Var #1 to Fixed, it had reverted to being a Var #1 channel.  We had no power loss that I know of during the night.  Now you guy know I have been running DCS for a pretty long time, and I know they system pretty darn well, however this mess was well above my electrical engineering pay grade.

I was hoping you guys could advise me as to what happened with my TIU, could this have been some kind of static electricity from the carpet that played havic with the TIU some way.

PCRR/Dave

Given that the layout was turned off (it was, wasn't it?), whether or not there was an outage during the night shouldn't make a difference.

I have no idea what happened.

RJR,

   Everything had been powered down the night before from the main power bar, all was dark in the living room when I went to bed.  I think my TIU malfunctioned and I have no idea why.  Could the new wire cable connection between the Legacy and the TIU have caused this to happen in some way?  It's the only new connection change that has been made to the TIU in a very long time.

PCRR/Dave

What was the reading on the remote screen?  I have on occasion gotten a 21,000+ voltage reading on the remote, but haven't had a wreck as a result.  Not having any LIonel equipment less than 40 years old, I can't answer your Legacy question.

RJR,

   Yes the 21,000 I do believe is what I saw and my eyes zeroed in on the 1,000

part of it, cause I was trying to stop the train at the same time.  What happened to make that number appear and my TIU go nuts?

PCRR/Dave

Maybe just some stray RFI triggered it.

I have no idea.  Are you sure the variable hadn't been set to fixed?  That will apply full transformer voltage a few seconds after you power up.  Should never be done if you ever run conventional. 

This happens rarely, however, I've seen it myself a couple or three times. In my cases, it occurred just after a TIU upgrade.

The voltage numbers can be just about anything, i.e., they aren't consistent from one occurrence to another.

The last time I saw this was in DCS 4.20. I've yet to see it in DCS 4.30, however, I rarely use TIU tracks except in fixed mode.

Barry & RJR,

   Well at least this happens very very seldom and I can quit worry about it happening again.  Got to admit I thought my TIU was starting to malfunction on a permanent basis.

It seem to be back to normal now working everything as it is suppose to.

Thanks for the input I always appreciate it.

PCRR/Dave

Your welcome, Dave.  Remember, when a train takes off, quickest way to stop it is the red button on the remote, or a single switch on the 120-volt feed.  6" from the side of my control panel is a socket strip, with surge protector and an on-off switch.  The latter also is convenient if I hear a buxzzing on the nlayout, which means something is on that shouldn't be, or I smell burning rubber (like when an uncoupling track magnet stays on.

RJR,

   All this happened so fast I did not even have time to push the red button on the hand held remote, and I am still pretty quick.

PCRR/Dave

Been there.  Kmow the feeling.

RJR & Barry,

   Had the problem happen again today but did not touch the remote control wheel,

shut everything down and rebooted, the problem was eliminated again.  I do know this I need to update my Rev L 4.10 hand held remote, and probably the TIU also, when my 2nd DCS unit comes back from Bill Ingraham, I got to send this Rev L 4.10  DCS up to GGG and have him bring the stuff up to the latest changes.  Maybe then this problem will finally go away for good.

PCRR/Dave

Dave,

Is there any chance that the TIU and the remote are operating with different releases of DCS?

Barry,

    Got to tell you I really am not sure, I picked this DCS TIU & hand held remote control up from a place in ME, Billy Ingraham got it for me when he was getting one for himself, got a good deal on it, but never dreamed it could be a mismatched set.

Does this kind of stuff happen when things are not all to the same levels?

The darn thing is running perfect today.

PCRR/Dave

Dave,

Does this kind of stuff happen when things are not all to the same levels?

A mismatch can result in any type of strange behavior, or no strange behavior at all. It's unpredictable.

To learn the DCS release of a remote, watch the screen at power-on. To learn the DCS release of a TIU:

Menu/System/TIU Setup/TIU Version

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Dave, if all  the units are DCS 4.1, I wouldn't think that the version is the issue.

Are the locos that take off DCS or conventional?  If the former, PS2 or PS3?

Hope it is not the charge port that has been added?  G

GGG, you lose me.  What charge port are you speaking of?

Dave had his units modified to be plugged into a power source vice run off the batteries.  G

I wasn't aware of that. 

GGG,

  I do not think it's the Charge Port, Billy has been running his for 2 years and has never had a single problem.  I will get this DCS TIU and hand held remote control up to you for upgrade in the near future, but I want to wait till I get the other one back from Bill, before I send this one to you.  Bill put the other one in the mail today, so I should be getting it in the next 3 or 4 days.  I do believe Barry is right, probably the DCS unit needs to be up graded to the latest changes, and I want somebody who knows what they are doing to do the work for me.  I have to much invested in this stuff now to

mess up the program changes. 

PCRR/Dave

RJR,

   Only the Conventional Engines run by the Z4K TR on Var #1 set to fixed, have the incredible high number appear and take off, if you move the thumb wheel.  The TIU TR on track #2 goes dead when this happens. 

RJR both my DCS hand held remotes have been upgraded to fully rechargeable remote controls, works like a million bucks. 

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek, is the charge port separate from the phone wire socket in the base?  Is there any chance that the higher voltage applied by the charger can reach the electronics?

Setting a variable to fixed and operating a conventional loco are not consistent with each other.  As soon as the transformer and TIU are powered up, when variable is set to fixed, you get the full input voltage on the track.  If am going to be operating conventionally, I'd set the variable to variable, and if I want to run DCS, just scroll up the voltage to what I want.

RJR,

   Separate entity the way Bill put it together I doubt any bleed over at all.

The great thing about the TR set up, is that it can be used in several different ways to control both P2 and Coventional Engines, at the same time on the same track. 

Ya got to love this technology.

PCRR/Dave

I have run both in the same "power district" at the same time, but never with the variable set to fixed.

RJR & Barry,

   Well it looks like Barry was right on the money when he asked me if the

TIU & hand held remote were different versions, they were, my original which I just got back from Billy who upgraded it to being fully rechargeable, was the remote that matched the TIU I have been using, he had upgraded the other one that came with the

different TIU 1st.  After using the original Hand held that matches the TIU I have not had the problem, and now they should definitely all be upgraded with the latest changes.  Barry I was like RJR and believed if the TIU & hand held remote were all Rev L, that I would have no problems without the minor upgrades, looks like I learned the hard way it does matter.  The parts for my broken train came today and I fixed the couplers & trucks this afternoon.  Definitely have to get one of these matching TIU & hand helds up to GGG so he can preform his upgrade magic on them, then I will send the 2nd units when the 1st one comes back.

Thanks again you guys, for all your help and knowledge.

PCRR/Dave

That's good information as I had previously thought that a minor rev difference like 4.20 and 4.30 wouldn't create any major issue, you'd just be limited by the earlier version. 

Guns,

   I do think it's a little more than just that, especially when using a different hand held that does not match the original TIU, guess I will see when everything is finally upgraded to the latest changes on all the DCS units. 

PCRR/Dave

I have used a 4.20 with a 4.30 TIU, and it all seemed to run correctly.  I know the Legacy is pretty forgiving of a mismatch, you just miss out on the newest features.

I think Barry is certainly correct, having everything at the same level solves the issue of wondering.

Barry I was like RJR and believed if the TIU & hand held remote were all Rev L, that I would have no problems without the minor upgrades

Dave, I never said that because, simply stated, "Rev L" only relates to the TIU harware version.  There is no versions fror remote; as far as I know, the current issue is virtually identical to the original issue.

I did say, "Dave, if all  the units are DCS 4.1, I wouldn't think that the version is the issue."  By "version" I meant the TIU's Rev.  Sorry if I mislead you.

"When I Use a Word, It Means Just What I Choose It to mean, Neither More nor Less."

          --Lewis Caroll, Through the Looking Glass

RJR,

   No big deal we all learn, I was not trying to put words in your mouth.  I am learning that if I am going to use a Hand held remote from a different DCS package on the one I already have set up, I better have all the upgrades in all the different parts of the DCS package to the latest changes and matching each other correctly.  Barry had actually warned me about this a long time ago, but after acquiring the 2nd DCS unit, it had

slipped my mind completely.  Fortunately it only cost me a couple of broken couplers to have a train take a nose dive off the 2nd level of my Christmas layout.  Atlas got me the parts in 3 days and everything is back to running normal.  Fortunately it was not a big Williams GG-1 that seem to pull stumps and run at the speed of light, there would have been a big hole in the wall in the living room.  A lesson learned the hard way, no doubt about it.

PCRR/Dave

A lesson I learned early in life is that when running trains on a table, always have something to stopthem at the edge of the table.  A scenery feature, like a hill or strong building is best, but if need be, a sheet of masonite a few inches above the surface.  In  picture I posted on an ongoing thread on bridges is one of a coat trestle.  It's right at the edge of table, over 4' above a concrste floor.  I added an aluminum railing.  Doesn't look prototypical, being thicker and shinier than would be on a real one, but it does the job.

RJR,

   In fact I have been considering some edge guarding myself, but I want it to fit into the layouts I build.  It definitely will take a little engineering planning as I go down that path.  As usual your suggestion is a good one.

PCRR/Dave