DCS remotes will no longer made?

Personally, I think they are making a mistake in going to smart device/app control only.  Not to mention selling sets that don't come with any sort of controller whatever.  There are lots of folks who will prefer using a physical remote.   And with good reason.  Using a smart device eliminates one of the senses--touch.  For both practical and aesthetic reasons, touch is valuable and enjoyable for lots of folks.  A simple example.  I absolutely hate using my phone or tablet for writing.  I'd rather dictate, which is far from perfect, but a lot better than trying to use a virtual keyboard.  No one learns to keyboard on a virtual device.  If I'm writing, I want a physical keyboard.  Perhaps not a perfect analogy, but makes the point. Touch is sometimes important for both function and enjoyment.  MTH is limiting their market unnecessarily by insisting that all future purchasers use a virtual device rather than a physical device.

Perhaps a simple DCS physical remote for basic functions (speed, direction, whistle, bell, couplers) would be possible?  Akin to the LC+ Universal Remote but able to control more than three locos?  If it could be sold for under $100, it would be a winner, I'd guess.  And it would keep options open that some users will prefer.  My prediction: after a few years of growing complaints they will do so simply to keep their market share stable or growing.  That's what led to the Lionel Universal LC/LC+ Remote is my guess.

I suspect we'll see some other tactile controllers emerge that work with the wi-fi system.

I could see connecting a physical throttle control to a phone via bluetooth - and have that work with the app over wi-fi.

Simple encoder controls can't be that hard to implement.

I'm curious - does the app accept any sort of keyboard input?

I will not run my trains with anything other than a DCS handheld remote. I do not have or will I have in the future a pad phone. There are many more like me, so I think the DCS handheld remote is here to stay.

Roving Sign posted:

I suspect we'll see some other tactile controllers emerge that work with the wi-fi system.

I could see connecting a physical throttle control to a phone via bluetooth - and have that work with the app over wi-fi.

Simple encoder controls can't be that hard to implement.

I'm curious - does the app accept any sort of keyboard input?

Unless MTH will let 3rd parties develop something or a generic interface will work then I doubt we'll see this. I'm one to prefer the feel of a remote but I also understand the added cost to produce them are becoming unnecessary as 3rd party Hardware can control easily updated proprietary software.  

MartyE posted:

Roving Sign posted:

I suspect we'll see some other tactile controllers emerge that work with the wi-fi system.

I could see connecting a physical throttle control to a phone via bluetooth - and have that work with the app over wi-fi.

Simple encoder controls can't be that hard to implement.

I'm curious - does the app accept any sort of keyboard input?

Unless MTH will let 3rd parties develop something or a generic interface will work then I doubt we'll see this. I'm one to prefer the feel of a remote but I also understand the added cost to produce them are becoming unnecessary as 3rd party Hardware can control easily updated proprietary software.  

Thats just it - encoders don't have much logic, its just a knob in a fancy case, not much different than the scroll wheel on your mouse - It should be like connecting a bluetooth mouse. Pair and go.

The cost would all be in creating an attractive case with some weight and a nice feel.

I'm not sure they have to let anyone do anything as long as the wireless side TIU<--->remote stays the same.... see this guys webpage:  http://www.silogic.com/trains/RTC_Running.html

Anyone could in theory take the core software and turn into their own kind of remote for example.

That's why I said generic interface. 

What MTH needs is a good core layout/fleet management program for the PC/Mac (Call it "DCS Central") - and have the phone app just for train control.  Just pick what engines you are going to run - load them to the phone roster and go - no need to manage your roster/fleet from your phone...which sounds like a pain.

I agree it would be nice if they simply published the interface so that anyone could build to it.  I don't see how this hurts them, you still need their interface hardware to connect to track and engine, etc... and to my knowledge they give the current computer software away anyway...  so what's it to them if someone else comes along with wadja-jiggit controller?   Might even increase sales.  But (apparently) that's not the way they roll ... 

Seems to me that the tail is starting to wag the dog. The hobby is supposed to be about TRAINS not how they are controlled.

jim pastorius posted:

Seems to me that the tail is starting to wag the dog. The hobby is supposed to be about TRAINS not how they are controlled.

Don't you think we had the same conversation when the first handheld remote was introduced?

I'm sure there were guys who claimed they would never trade their trusty transformer handles for a scroll wheel...

It appears that business' today think everyone has a smart phone. WELL THEY DON'T. Many don't even have a computer. If MTH eliminates an easy to use controller they will be putting a large customer base into the hands of their competitors. ME? When I start running trains from a phone I will have lost the fun of running the train.

Jim

It must be fairly simple to interface with a bluetooth controller.  I have a Mad Catz CTRLi bluetooth controller I can use for tactile control of my Bluerail equipped engines once I connect using my Ipad:

It works fine, but some of the features (changing the setups) on the Ipad App still have to be controlled from the Ipad, but it does allow the control of speed, direction, horn/whistle, bell, and headlight on/off functions.

http://www.madcatz.com/gamepads/ctrli.php

Prices for this type range from $15 to $50 depending on where you get it.  I think I paid $40 for mine, but they seem to have come down lately.

Jim 1939 posted:

It appears that business' today think everyone has a smart phone. WELL THEY DON'T. Many don't even have a computer. If MTH eliminates an easy to use controller they will be putting a large customer base into the hands of their competitors. ME? When I start running trains from a phone I will have lost the fun of running the train.

Jim

Not knocking you but that's about the same thing I said on this forum about DCS when I first got into O-scale trains.  Found the trains ran much better using command control than a transformer throttle.

I've actually gone back to using a handheld throttle with knobs (see my first post) for my Deltang equipped engines, just battery-powered.

I still don't have a smart phone, really have no need or desire to text anyone or take photos of idiotic things people do.  My Walmart Tracfone doesn't even flip!!!

The only reason I have an Ipad is my daughter gave it to me as a Christmas gift 2 years ago.

The Ipad does get heavy after a while, they make gadgets to attach it to your hand/arm.  I usually use mine to connect with the train via the App, then use the Mad Catz controller to run the train.

Or like this -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBZgl-w2j3A

(there's 15+ vids on this -- that's a kind of summary vid.  But the gist is the guy modeled the real controls of a F7 and integrated them into his layout in a kind of cab view... )

Bob Delbridge posted:

Jim 1939 posted:

It appears that business' today think everyone has a smart phone. WELL THEY DON'T. Many don't even have a computer. If MTH eliminates an easy to use controller they will be putting a large customer base into the hands of their competitors. ME? When I start running trains from a phone I will have lost the fun of running the train.

Jim

I still don't have a smart phone, really have no need or desire to text anyone or take photos of idiotic things people do.  

Would that include pictures of model trains?  Not everyone uses their phone just for selfies.  Both of my phones have cameras that are perfectly fine for taking detailed pictures up close as well as well as pictures from a distance. I haven't had the need to have a separate digital camera for 4-5 years now. 

Plus there's the convenience of posting pictures directly from a phone to a forum, FB, or texting them to a friend.  I ironically have a friend who is only in his thirties (though he can come across as someone in his sixties or seventies) who refuses to get a mobile phone if any sort, even just for emergency situations.  There are times where he has been working on a project on his bench and wants to share an update with friends in a group messenger chat.  Knowing that he has to get up, find where the camera is hiding, take a picture, take the camera to his PC to download the picture, and then send it to chat makes the rest of us laugh. 

Smart phones aren't for everyone, but they're not just for "taking pictures of idiotic things".

This thread has had many contributors, and if any conclusion can be drawn, it is that a substantial proportion of DCS users still want to retain the remote.  Apart from minor redesigns to accommodate possible changes in availability of components (unavailability of remote components is still, as far as we know, conjectural), this means MTH only has to make minimal investments to keep the remote in production, and sell it at a profit. There is no way to calculate how many train sales would be lost if the remote did not exist.

Consider 2 examples in real life:  If a railroad tears up all branches and sidings that are minimally profitable or do lose money, eventually there is a loss of traffic on the profitable main lines.  GE shed its profitable lines (appliances and lighting) because they didn't make enough profit compared to other lines.  Now it's downhill.

Bottom line:  Mr. Wolf has to make a decision, and MTH lives or dies with his decisions. 

I would think remote control of trains and taking pic's are 2 different subjects. Again personal preferences prevail but not everyone that would like to buy an MTH train is gonna want to run around looking for something to run it with. Those that have been in the hobby have already established how they run trains. The new buyer has not.

RJR posted:

This thread has had many contributors, and if any conclusion can be drawn, it is that a substantial proportion of DCS users still want to retain the remote.  Apart from minor redesigns to accommodate possible changes in availability of components (unavailability of remote components is still, as far as we know, conjectural), this means MTH only has to make minimal investments to keep the remote in production, and sell it at a profit. There is no way to calculate how many train sales would be lost if the remote did not exist.

Consider 2 examples in real life:  If a railroad tears up all branches and sidings that are minimally profitable or do lose money, eventually there is a loss of traffic on the profitable main lines.  GE shed its profitable lines (appliances and lighting) because they didn't make enough profit compared to other lines.  Now it's downhill.

Bottom line:  Mr. Wolf has to make a decision, and MTH lives or dies with his decisions. 

You'll be able to buy used remotes for decades to come.

I predict a surplus going forward...

Its not like these changes are making the old hardware obsolete.

I tend to think MTH has run the numbers on this...likely a no-brainer!

Im buying MTH locos - and I don't even have a DCS system yet! - The remote is not a factor in my thinking...in fact, I almost bid on one - and thought - why the heck should I get that thing - when I might be happy with the DCS Explorer?

Here's a question - will the remotes work with the DCS Explorer?

jim pastorius posted:

Seems to me that the tail is starting to wag the dog. The hobby is supposed to be about TRAINS not how they are controlled.

Not anymore it seems. 

Smart device control is the latest "gosh-oh-golly-gee how can anyone have fun with their trains using anything else" syndrome.

Frankly, if someone's going to be bored with controlling their trains with a transformer, tethered or wireless throttle of other hand held controller, they're eventually going to get bored with using their "smart" device.

BTW.  I have a smart phone.  It's turned off when I'm at home.  (The phone store rep actually asked me why would I want to turn it off...)  I occasionally text or take pictures with it.  It comes in handy when you suddenly find yourself in an Alfred Hitchcock movie:

I download the pictures from my phone to my computer at the earliest convenience, then clear the phone's memory.

Rusty

Hey, I still use typewriters.

But I'm also okay with Lionels Bluetooth app, for example. Including a physical controller too makes it best of both worlds!

Roving Sign posted:

I suspect we'll see some other tactile controllers emerge that work with the wi-fi system.

I could see connecting a physical throttle control to a phone via bluetooth - and have that work with the app over wi-fi.

Simple encoder controls can't be that hard to implement.

I'm curious - does the app accept any sort of keyboard input?

I'm already working on something like with an old Nintendo Wii controller. I am thinking about switching to a MadCatz controller that allows you to attach a smart phone to it.  It would be very similar to a drone controller.

HID input devices on Andriod? Yes, I have attached a computer mouse to my tablet which allows me to use that instead of my fingers to interact with the the app. A keyboard shouldn't be much harder, just have to map the functions of the keys. That's where I got the idea of using Wii controller.

bigdodgetrain posted:

Barry Broskowitz posted:

I did it and it works find

Actually, I don’t think that you did.

There’s no question that one can get the DCS App to install  on a Kindle Fire. That’s very doable.

The difficulty is getting the in-app purchase of the Standard or Premium upgrade accomplished. One does not do this using the Google Play Store, rather, it must be done from within the app from the More.../Upgrade screen. When one does this on a Kindle Fire, the app cycles endlessly.

I just love it how your ego gets in the way of facts!!!!

 

follow my advice or not, I could give a crap

 

I KNOW IT WORKS!!!!

Big Dodge, I have to agree with Barry on this one.

I'll give you (and Barry) the credit for being able to get the app on the Kindle device by bypassing the app store and installing the APK manually. It's not easy and again the Kindle does not have the Google play connectivity required to allow for an in-app purchase via the Play store.

If you can completely install the Play store on a kindle you would have better success with the upgrades. If you all you need is the Free version, the kindle will work for those who want to go through the steps of installing it. These steps are probable not going to be something the average user would want to engage themselves in.

I tend to think MTH has run the numbers on this...likely a no-brainer!

That's a guess.

And even if you're right, Ford Motor Company ran the numbers, they all pointed to a new way to sell many more cars.  And they produced:

          The Edsel

I think an interesting question here would if everyone who posts on this thread would included their age. MTH markets new engines (mostly Premier) to the established DCS users 50 and older.  They realize that these folks are getting older and eventually will no longer be buying trains.

So then who do they sell to? You can't market the DCS remote to today's generation of new consumers who want to use their smart phones for everything. For those who say you can't learn to type on a touch screen... My niece can type complete phrases and grammatically correct sentences on here phone while holding it behind her back. I can't do that and I'm under 40.

If today's kids are the future of the hobby, then we also need to keep them interested. This is a great way to do it. Look at how many industries that have suffered due to the digital age. Great examples Blockbuster movie rental stores, the digital camera industry has declined rapidly as well as desktop & laptop computers. We can thank Streaming and Smart devices for changing these industries forever. 

Anyone watch Back to the Future II? Remember the scene in the cafe' 80's where the kids called the old "Wild Gunman" arcade game a baby's toy because you had to use your hands. They weren't to far from the mark on that one.

RJR posted:

I tend to think MTH has run the numbers on this...likely a no-brainer!

That's a guess.

And even if you're right, Ford Motor Company ran the numbers, they all pointed to a new way to sell many more cars.  And they produced:

          The Edsel

Which is why basic flip phones out sell smart phones today. MTH didn't have to run the numbers, Samsung & Apple did it for them.

The Edsel was never successful. The app and the WIU were very successful, if it wasn't the DCS explorer would have never seen the light of day.

bigdodgetrain posted:

H1000 posted:

bigdodgetrain posted:

Barry Broskowitz posted:

I did it and it works find

Actually, I don’t think that you did.

There’s no question that one can get the DCS App to install  on a Kindle Fire. That’s very doable.

The difficulty is getting the in-app purchase of the Standard or Premium upgrade accomplished. One does not do this using the Google Play Store, rather, it must be done from within the app from the More.../Upgrade screen. When one does this on a Kindle Fire, the app cycles endlessly.

I just love it how your ego gets in the way of facts!!!!

 

follow my advice or not, I could give a crap

 

I KNOW IT WORKS!!!!

Big Dodge, I have to agree with Barry on this one.

I'll give you (and Barry) the credit for being able to get the app on the Kindle device by bypassing the app store and installing the APK manually. It's not easy and again the Kindle does not have the Google play connectivity required to allow for an in-app purchase via the Play store.

If you can completely install the Play store on a kindle you would have better success with the upgrades. If you all you need is the Free version, the kindle will work for those who want to go through the steps of installing it. These steps are probable not going to be something the average user would want to engage themselves in.

did you try it???

 

don't call me a liar if you do not try it.

Where in my statement did I use the word "liar"? I have a Kindle, I installed the APK, and it worked. Then I thought, "why did I just waste 30 minutes of my life doing this?"

I agree, it is possible, but not easy. It's like running a Mac OS X on a PC. It's possible, but not easy.

The audience for getting people hooked on toy trains is more likely 5-10 years of age than 12-25 years of age, for all the obvious reasons.   I believe it's also obvious that the current generation of over 60 toy train fans got hooked in the 1950s and 1960s when they were children.  Kids that age don't need or use smart devices as much as older children and young adults.  Give them a remote and some interesting things to do with a train and they may well come back to toy trains in their 30s and 40s, or even later.  I don't think having trains controlled by a smart device is going to win over any 12-25 year olds.  They've got other fish to fry.  We'll see who is correct in their approach, Lionel or MTH over the next decade or two, at least those of us who are still around.

Perhaps remember that now as in the past, that first train set is almost always bought by a grandparent or parent, who may or may not be keen on smart devices.  The tech savvy 15, 18 or 25 year old who is going to spring for $400 for an MTH set is a rare bird is my guess.

If I were MTH, I'd start thinking about how to make an inexpensive handheld to include in their sets (most importantly) and sell separately for those who buy their first PS3 separate sale loco and the Explorer (of lesser importance). 

bigdodgetrain posted:

H1000 posted:

bigdodgetrain posted:

H1000 posted:

bigdodgetrain posted:

Barry Broskowitz posted:

I did it and it works find

Actually, I don’t think that you did.

There’s no question that one can get the DCS App to install  on a Kindle Fire. That’s very doable.

The difficulty is getting the in-app purchase of the Standard or Premium upgrade accomplished. One does not do this using the Google Play Store, rather, it must be done from within the app from the More.../Upgrade screen. When one does this on a Kindle Fire, the app cycles endlessly.

I just love it how your ego gets in the way of facts!!!!

 

follow my advice or not, I could give a crap

 

I KNOW IT WORKS!!!!

Big Dodge, I have to agree with Barry on this one.

I'll give you (and Barry) the credit for being able to get the app on the Kindle device by bypassing the app store and installing the APK manually. It's not easy and again the Kindle does not have the Google play connectivity required to allow for an in-app purchase via the Play store.

If you can completely install the Play store on a kindle you would have better success with the upgrades. If you all you need is the Free version, the kindle will work for those who want to go through the steps of installing it. These steps are probable not going to be something the average user would want to engage themselves in.

did you try it???

 

don't call me a liar if you do not try it.

Where in my statement did I use the word "liar"? I have a Kindle, I installed the APK, and it worked. Then I thought, "why did I just waste 30 minutes of my life doing this?"

I agree, it is possible, but not easy. It's like running a Mac OS X on a PC. It's possible, but not easy.

did you not state this? "Big Dodge, I have to agree with Barry on this one."

barry called me a liar and your statement just backs him up. so you called me one too.

why even get involved if you got it to work????

had you not made that statement I would have left you out of this.

Next time I'll be more clear about which parts of Barry's statements I agree with. I was likening more to the technical aspects of the conversation. Barry said "Liar" not me.

I still agree with Barry (on the technical aspects), I don't think you managed to get the app working on the kindle well enough to purchase the standard or premium upgrade. I also backed up you by saying "I agree, it is possible, but not easy. It's like running a Mac OS X on a PC. It's possible, but not easy."

Let me know when you get the Play store app fully functional on your kindle so that the DCS app can be made FULLY  functional on a kindle.

Gentlemen, can we call a halt to this non-productive exchange and get back to discussing the remote and the app?

There are a lot of sound reasons for the continuing popularity of the conventional power and hand-held remote control tactile based operating modes. When I taught marketing, I cautioned my students not to favor what they liked, but what the market was telling them. Phone and tablet based apps are the future and the youngsters have this all figured out. Battery power might also fit in this category, but it's a bit early to really know. For a hobby to survive, it must recognize and adapt to it's  longer term environment. Lionel, MTH and Bachmann are listening and making product moves in sync with these changes. 

Roving Sign posted:

I'm sure there were guys who claimed they would never trade their trusty transformer handles for a scroll wheel...

 I'm sure there still are folks that would never trade their trusty transformer handle for remote control let alone an app. Just as there will probably be folks still preferring the remote to the app for a long time to come. I might just be one of those too... Personally, I think it is a bit premature to be discontinuing the remotes. If it was up to me the remotes would remain available for at least several years, maybe more. That is if the parts (or substitute parts) for them remain available and they are able to still be made.

I do agree that the app is good for the younger folks and I think it's a great idea to get them interested in the hobby. But I am also saying that us older folks that like the remotes should not be forgotten either. Some older folks probably do use the app, I have it and upgraded to the premium app and I also use it, just not all the time as I still prefer the remote. We should have both for at least a while longer. IMO.

Big Dodge,

Let’s be clear. I never used the word “liar” and I did not call you any names.

Further, my ego, large as it may be, has nothing to do with my statements.

I said, in not so many words, that I didn’t think that you actually got the Standard or Premium version of the app installed on a Kindle device. I did get the free version installed, however, updates are done via an in-app purchase. The in-app procedure just doesn’t work on the Kindle and can’t be worked around using the procedure that you indicated, which can be used to install the free version of the app.

If you can, please demonstrate that you have a functional Premium app running on a Kindle and also list the exact, reproducible steps that you did to accomplish this.

It would be really terrific if we could run the Standard and Premium versions of the app on a Kindle device!

I bought a Kindle and gave up trying to get the app installed. There were several steps that I had to go thru just for the attempt. I followed each step as listed in a post.

Another poster who did get it to work described it as basically changing the operating software on the Kindle if I remember correctly? Something that was over my head to attempt. 

I believe my problem was my Kindle is a Fire HD from Amazon. There were some blocks I couldn't get past. Finally the tablet got hacked after I changed the software (added the Google and Playstore apps). So it had to be reset and that took me right back to the beginning. 

I surrender!

First, My apologies to Barry. After reading his post he indeed did not say "liar", and my post above was inaccurate when I said "Barry said "Liar" not me".

I reluctantly indulged the procedures listed previously (http://www.lovemyfire.com/inst...-on-kindle-fire.html) on two different Kindle devices in my home. They are 3rd Gen Kindle Fire HD 7" and a a 5th Gen Kindle Fire HD 8". The result on both devices was the same... It didn't work.

The Play store app failed to launch on both devices nor was the MTH DCS app able to purchase an upgrade. I also analyzed the internet traffic from my Kindles via my router and there was no attempt to even communicate with Google Play servers when an APP upgrade is requested from within the DCS App.

Both of my Kindle devices are limited to running the app in FREE mode only.

Huh !!??  All gobbledy Gook to me. 

H1000,

Both of my Kindle devices are limited to running the app in FREE mode only.

As previously stated, that has been my experience exactly. However, I expect that that will be good enough to operate the DCS Explorer.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

H1000,

Both of my Kindle devices are limited to running the app in FREE mode only.

As previously stated, that has been my experience exactly. However, I expect that that will be good enough to operate the DCS Explorer.

Barry, I'm seriously thinking of buying a wifi unit after the holidays and just wonder if it will control the track power like DCS remote does with a Z4K receiver plugged into the Z4K transformer?

Gene,

I'm seriously thinking of buying a wifi unit after the holidays and just wonder if it will control the track power like DCS remote does with a Z4K receiver plugged into the Z4K transformer?

Unfortunately, that isn’t possible.

The DCS App communicates via WiFi (2.4 GHz) with the WIU and the Z4000 receiver only uses 900 MHz. In order to talk to the Z4000 receiver, additional hardware would be required. MTH has indicated that, at the present time, that isn’t going to happen.

Some of you guys really need to get some user friendly shorts. Now I understand that things can get "bunched up" when we talk about technology, but HAVE YOU REALLY TRIED IT? I mean you can go up and down the line and think about "progress":

I don't want to dial the phone, I like talking to the operator.

I get better control over the car when I shift gears.

I miss paying a cash toll and don't want EZ Pass because big brother can track me.

You don't have to get up to change the station or volume on the TV?

What is that thing in the window that blows cold air?

And the best -- I don't have to stand at the transformer to play with my train?

Guys, I get the tactile feel of a remote rather that the screen of a tablet. But did you look at your transformer all the time before there were remotes? Could you walk around your layout and stop the crash before there were remotes? Give it a good try and put some effort into it. THEN if you don't like it, stock up on the handhelds. I'll have a few for sale.

Gerry