Dead Rail Running ( battery powered locos)

Dead rail is very big with the garden modeler crowd,  for obvious reasons, don't have to worry about cleaning track, electrical connectivity,  animals chewing through your wiring.  

There are a number of remote control systems that can incorporate a dead rail feature. Many now have a bluetooth option so you don't need to buy a controller,  just use your smartphone.  I have an MTH PS2  switcher with a bad board and will try one of those dead rail systems to resurrect it. Might come out cheaper than rebuilding the PS electronics or switching it to TMCC. 

Thanks for responding! Based on your thoughts, I will keep looking into this.

See the fantastic O scale layout featured in "Great Model Railroads 2020"  (Look Ma, no wires, page 26)

This old Lionel GP-7 with a Pullmor motor was converted to battery power.  It was pulling the pictured train yesterday on the G&O Garden Railroad.

The owner uses the Airwire Radio system.  The locomotive has a full sound and light system and will operate for about 4 hours on one charge.  This is more than enough time for our typical train show or run.

The owner has converted about six engines to battery power using the Airwire system.  They all work great.  The battery powered engines are more reliable than the track powered engines in that the signal is never lost and they run just fine with dirty track.  In fact, they run with no track at all.  

The only issue with battery power conversion for me is that it is expensive and the sound and smoke options are not easily available.  The cost can run $100 to $200 per engine.  NH Joe

I think it has gotten to the point where dead rail is no longer  impractical. Battery power has grown and sizes have shrunk to the point where it will be possible to put this kind of setups in engines and the like. The real problem as I see it is it still is in the 'hobbyist' phase in that to use dead rail you have to find the components from various sources and then integrate them and there are no standards (good question with the wireless command system, are they using DCC or is it custom done protocol for sound and control?).

To get this to really take off I think we would need the big manufacturers to offer new items RTR with dead rail, but they in turn are waiting for there to be some sort of groundswell.  Lionel and MTH have large investment and revenue in live rails, with DCS and Legacy command systems, transformers and so forth and a lot of people may be reluctant to switch for the same reasons, their investment in powered rails/dcs/legacy. Lionel in theory could offer dead rail as an option for lc+/lc 2.0, given they offer direct bluetooth control of the engine, the motor is already dc, so basically it would involve fitting a battery to the engine, with perhaps a selector switch to allow it to run live or dead rail. 

If Lionel, MTH and Atlas would offer locomotives at current prices (or nearly so) with an integrated, standardized battery-powered system, that is the version I would buy.

MELGAR 

The costs of the batteries need to come down.

Same with autos.. 10 grand to replace batteries...same with solar..

I have a fleet of battery powered engines using four different RC systems. One was detailed in an OGRR article. All work beautifully. The LiPO batteries I've used are not that expensive. Remaining operating issue is: easy to implement recharging, which I plan to work on next. I still run conventional and TMCC, but must admit that when I was engaged in my monthly layout track cleaning effort, I could not help but reflect on how battery powered engines don't seem to be affected by dirty track or troublesome switches.

I wonder how easy it would be to convert a locomotive to radio control using the systems that the R/C boys use in their trucks or ships.  The battery and the receiver board could fit into a tender and small  servos could be in the boiler attached to the smoke unit for a chuffing action. I could also see a servo attached to the bell  to make it move or one in an engineer's body to make him turn around when you reverse direction. 

Great food for thought. You are quite aways ahead of me in the technical area but now I know where to spen my time. Thanks

BOB WALKER posted:

I could not help but reflect on how battery powered engines don't seem to be affected by dirty track or troublesome switches.

Well... they still derail if the switch is mechanically flawed.

As someone with a law school education and a background in small business, I can easily believe your story and the terror which the phrase "potential liability" strikes in the hearts of any board of directors. At least now I have some of the background story. Thanks for the detailed reply!

The potential problems with the newer batteries is well documented. When I recharge, I carefully monitor the recharge current and the battery voltage. A voltmeter connected across a 1 ohm resistor in series with the power supply is a relatively simple and accurate way to measure current. Cell voltage is a prime indicator of battery status and health. There is a wealth of info on this subject available on-line. 

BOB WALKER posted:

There is a wealth of info on this subject available on-line. 

True, but this takes it out of the realm of the non-technical guys.

Being a non-technical guy, it will take someone smarter than me to come up with a marketable system, hopefully within the next few years.

The 2 limiting factors are (1) there are no RTR BPRC engines currently available and (2) I haven't found a single source for the components I use.

Here's a diagram that I have used for most of my BPRC'd engines:

The DC motors I used are the ones that came with the engines.

The Deltang RX-65 receiver (and TX-22 transmitter) can be purchased from 1 dealer (in my case I used Micron Radio Control in the UK).  The Tx takes a 9v battery.  I get my Rx pre-wired so I don't have to touch a soldering iron to the board, just to the ends of the wires.

The 9.6v 2000Mah NiMh battery is made by Tenergy, available on Amazon for under $20. You'll also need a charger.  Capable of hundreds of charges the batteries I have (18 engines last count) should last many more years

The BIK-U3 and charging jack came from RCS Australia.  Love these things but it takes 10-14 days to get them.  Basically the thing can be made using a charging jack, on/off switch, and some polyfuses, but RCS tidies it all up on a small circuit board.  I also installed a polyfuse inline between the motor and the Rx.

And you'll need a couple of LEDs for headlight/rear headlight.  I got mine from Evans Designs.

Here's a basic diagram with individual components (switch, fuse, charging socket) vice using the BIK-U3:

So far I have installed BPRC in a MTH RailKing Imperial USRA 0-6-0 (smallest engine I have) to a Williams brass N&W J 4-8-4 (biggest/heaviest engine I have).  Most have 9.6v 2000Mah NiMh batteries, some have 12v 2000Mah NiMh batteries, and some have 11.1 2200Mah LiPo batteries.  All give me runs of 2 to 2.5 hours and take the same time to recharge (haven't tried anything more than 1A/hr charging).  All steam engine batteries are in the tenders, all diesels are inside under the shell.  I have installed BPRC in MTH, Lionel, Weaver, Atlas, Williams, and Williams by Bachmann engines and all have performed wonderfully.

Bob Walker has provided me with much expertise (thanks Bob!), but a lot of it was on my shoulders.  I do (did) have some electronic knowledge from working on Navy gear back in the 70s-80s, but I've been retired almost 14 years and have forgotten most of what (I thought) I knew.  If you can follow instructions and solder you're half way there!!!

Go here to see what the BIK-U3 looks like:

https://www.rcs-rc.com/pages/Parts-Install-kits

Very nice to be thanked for providing help to a fellow modeler. One of the key points made by Bob D. is that a certain skill level may be necessary for a successful conversion to battery power. Another key  element listed by Bob D. is that almost any current brand of engine can be converted, which is also my experience to date. I enjoy battery power, but the other day I recalled that this give up some of the very interesting conventional power automatic block control schemes I designed and are active on my layout, but I'll get over it.

quimby posted:

Great food for thought. You are quite aways ahead of me in the technical area but now I know where to spen my time. Thanks

I saw an article in a magazine quite a while ago  (I  can't remember which one ) where someone took an O-scale scale diesel and installed an engineer figure that turns around when the direction was changed.  He was cut in half at the stomach and the upper torso was attached to a solenoid so when the direction was changed he would look toward that direction.  Was pretty neat, if I find the article, I will post a link.

What amp polyfuse do you wire inline? I'm looking at doing my first dead rail install and I'm curious.

Thanks,

For a # of train shows for a few years I have been running 3 of the Lionel Battery larger G scale battery trains with LionChief control. I use 8 rechargeable Ni Cad AA cells in battery trays wired in place of the 6 C cell batteries they normally use. They run for most of the day before needing a battery change. The kids control them with the LionChief wireless remotes.

So they work so well I thought I might try it on our garden railway O gauge layout using some LionChief engines that will run on AC or DC track power. I have been testing engines with my DC transformer with volt and Amp meter and the following barely move the meter drawing very little power and run at 6 volts; The smaller LionChief engines like Thomas and the small kids style switchers, or the latest GP 38 like this; http://www.lionel.com/products...nchief-gp38-2034220/

I have tested a Thomas with 8 AA rechargeable batteries removing the center rail pickups and running the wires from center rail and outside rail pickups to the batteries in a trailing gondola this works very well. So you have remote control with the LionChief remote, but it does need a fairly clean site line to the engine or it can loose the signal when passing behind large objects or tunnels.

Most other Lion LionChief engines I have tested draw .8 to 1 amp at 12 volts these are typical range of LionChief engines steam and diesel with 1 or 2 motors. So what would work for a battery configuration for these that draw more power and need about 12 volts to run? Can anyone recommend a rechargeable RC battery pack  that would work? By Simply removing the center rail pickup and wiring the typical track power pickup wires to a plug to a trailing rail car that could carry the battery pack I would expect this would work very well with little cost to get dead rail running for a garden railway layout.

For my conversion of a LC+ Conrail 4605 Rectifier, I used a LectronPro 1150 mah LiPO battery mounted inside the shell.

I have also powered this engine with a 1250 mah NiMH battery mounted in a trailing car. Both setups  worked OK.

Here is My dumb question.

Are the electronics in the battery powered locomotives on dead track less susceptible to voltage spikes than transformer powered locomotives on live track ?

It would really be great if the voltage spike risks to the circuit boards could be drastically reduced in a battery powered locomotives.  

Would each passenger car need its own battery for its internal lighting ?

Thanks in advance for your responses !!!

I modified an O scale RS-3 to run on either track power or battery power. My layout is around the ceiling and sometimes I don't use it for awhile so the track does get dirty. I also updated the lighting in the locomotive and the cab lights are track power only so I can see how clean the track is by watching it run around the layout

Now once I switch to battery power, the locomotive just runs with no control. I only use it to clean the track.

https://www.nepaview.com/rs-3-battery-powered.html

@CBQ_Bill posted:

Here is My dumb question.

Are the electronics in the battery powered locomotives on dead track less susceptible to voltage spikes than transformer powered locomotives on live track ?

It would really be great if the voltage spike risks to the circuit boards could be drastically reduced in a battery powered locomotives.  

Would each passenger car need its own battery for its internal lighting ?

Thanks in advance for your responses !!!

Bill, I’ve often wondered the same.  I’ve used battery powered remote control vehicles for years (cars, boats, drones) and I’ve never heard of fried boards being an issue.

@adferraro posted:

What amp polyfuse do you wire inline? I'm looking at doing my first dead rail install and I'm curious.

Thanks,

I think I used 3A auto-reset/poly fuses.  I measured the draw of most of my engines and found the worst one was under 1.5A.  So far after 5+ years I haven't had any failures.  I use 9.6 NiMh, 11.1LiPo, and 12NiMh volt batteries.

I got all of my batteries from power.tenergy.com (aka All Battery when I last ordered) or from their store on amazon.  The 12v NiMh 2000mah battery is P/N 11606.  They also show a recommended charger.  I've settled on the 9.6 NiMh because they're cheaper and they fit in everything I have (smallest loco is a RK Imperial USRA 0-6-0), I have a 12v in my Williams brass N&W J 611 and I believe in my Williams E7 (could be my 3rd Rail E7).

@CBQ_Bill posted:

Here is My dumb question.

Are the electronics in the battery powered locomotives on dead track less susceptible to voltage spikes than transformer powered locomotives on live track ?

It would really be great if the voltage spike risks to the circuit boards could be drastically reduced in a battery powered locomotives.  

Would each passenger car need its own battery for its internal lighting ?

Thanks in advance for your responses !!!

I would say no voltage spikes.  No power to the track so no unpowered gaps with voltage on either side to worry about.  If I've had one I didn't know it!

Yes, there's a lot of spots to hide a battery and on/off switch under or inside a passenger car.  I did it to 2 of my GGD aluminum Seaboard Air Line "SILVER METEOR" cars, using the following circuit:

I took them back out because I mounted them differently and wanted to install them in each car the same way, just haven't gotten to it yet.

I just noticed I didn't show the jack between the battery and switch/step-up regulator.  That's why I took them back out (memory is not what it used to be!).  I was going to make it so I could access the jack without having to remove anything in the process.  I need to get on that, the Silver Meteor drumhead looks cool with the room lights off!!!

I have a variety RC/BP units.  Just wish I was aware of their simplicity before I went nuts with 1000's of feet of wiring.

These units start very slow, pull great and are very dependable.

Having a low threshold for aggravation these battery powered remote control motive power units are perfect.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to begin learning how do it myself.  Is anyone aware of a business that does these conversions?  I'd start migrating in that direction, if I could.

@Tom Tee posted:

I have a variety RC/BP units.  Just wish I was aware of their simplicity before I went nuts with 1000's of feet of wiring.

These units start very slow, pull great and are very dependable.

Having a low threshold for aggravation these battery powered remote control motive power units are perfect.

Tom,

1000's of feet of wire just to power the track?  You must have a massive layout.

Are you sure some of it's not for electric switch machines, accessories, or signals?

Mike

@New Haven Joe posted:

This old Lionel GP-7 with a Pullmor motor was converted to battery power.  It was pulling the pictured train yesterday on the G&O Garden Railroad.

The owner uses the Airwire Radio system.  The locomotive has a full sound and light system and will operate for about 4 hours on one charge.  This is more than enough time for our typical train show or run.

The owner has converted about six engines to battery power using the Airwire system.  They all work great.  The battery powered engines are more reliable than the track powered engines in that the signal is never lost and they run just fine with dirty track.  In fact, they run with no track at all.  

The only issue with battery power conversion for me is that it is expensive and the sound and smoke options are not easily available.  The cost can run $100 to $200 per engine.  NH Joe

Hmmmm running with no track? sounds like my days with the Penn Central.....LOL

@third rail posted:

Dead rail is very big with the garden modeler crowd,  for obvious reasons, don't have to worry about cleaning track, electrical connectivity,  animals chewing through your wiring. 

There are a number of remote control systems that can incorporate a dead rail feature. Many now have a bluetooth option so you don't need to buy a controller,  just use your smartphone.  I have an MTH PS2  switcher with a bad board and will try one of those dead rail systems to resurrect it. Might come out cheaper than rebuilding the PS electronics or switching it to TMCC.

Yup with O gauge track cleaning is a hassle. Shame there is no track cleaning engine like we have in G scale from LGB. Will polish the rail like a mirror. one set of polishing wheels spins backwards as the engine moves, cleaning the top of the rails like a mirror.

Here is a link to the engine I am talking about. https://youtu.be/Ka6KHn1mV6s

A few more thoughts on the matter, some old, some new...

1) The increasing interest level, the demonstrated application to O gauge (and smaller, BTW), the DIY nature of the conversions, questions/answers re batteries/chargers/features/blah, blah, blah...all IMHO support creation of a 'Dead Rail' or Battery Powered forum category for collecting info and expertise...to help folks like this OP...and me.

2) That an OE participation in serious battery power for O gauge would help spur this forward was considered by Bachmann.  Several years ago at York I challenged one of their technical reps to add this to their 150-year firsts.  The story he told is that it was considered...and highly discouraged by their legal department.  As is well known, application of battery power to G (Large Scale) railroads is becoming quite common, but mostly as a DIY conversion.  It seems that one chap made such a homemade conversion to a Bachmann Big Hauler locomotive.  There was an incompatibility, apparently, with the charger.  There was a fire.  There was home damage.  Then, there was a lawsuit, of which Bachmann was a 'deep-pocket' defendant.  Long story shortened, Bachmann was later found without fault in the matter.  BUT!...the incident underscored the risks of this sort of power conversion in the hands of the common hobbyist not understanding the caveats of technologies.

And I can understand this.  This sort of battery/charger mismatch problem is not uncommon with certain variants of battery  and charging technologies...from my overheard experience with the R/C department at our LHS.  In fact, we had one R/C customer who had proudly put together a DIY Batt-powered bicycle.  Brought the whole bicycle into the store complaining about swollen batteries (LHS purchased) with a newly (online) purchased charger, plugged it all in while waiting his turn, batteries started smoking, mad dash to get him and the bicycle out the door...followed by an employee with extinguisher!

Nonetheless, safer technologies are being developed.  To see the latest R/C products...drones, helicopters, boats, cars, trucks, large airplanes, gliders, military vehicles, construction equipment, etc., etc...spawned by advancing battery technologies is awesome....IMHO, of course.  And, so, why not model railroading...and O scale?  Fie, fie, on you, oh dirty rails!  Your days are numbered!!

3) I converted an LGB Mogul steam engine to battery power using an RCS America system...purchased at York years ago (orange hall).  It still works like a charm.  As was pointed out in response above, even works on carpet...NO track.  Train customers that day were impressed.  So am I.  RCS America had O scale engines for demo at that York meet back then.  Sadly, it seemed to be more of a gimmick to those who commented while I was discussing my purchase/conversion with the RCS reps.

Ah, well, like all technical change, it'll find its own destiny in its own time.

In addition to conventional track power and TMCC, battery powered locos have been part of my operating scene for over 5 years. During this time I have never lost a PC board and when the systems I tested ran into motor current overload, they merely shut down. Installation and proper battery management are important factors for this mode. There is a substantial federally funded program to keep improving the performance and reliability of lithium batteries. I endorse the idea of a battery power forum topic.

If all you do is run trains around the layout on-board battery power is probably for you.  A separate forum for it on the OGR site it definitely a good idea as a result.

Many of us however also manage routes using powered switch machines to set switches up to enable our routes, just like the prototype.  Almost all of these machines being electric, they have to be wired.

Also, many of us manage movements with signals, again just like the prototype.  These all require wiring to function.

Unlike @Tom Tee's 1000's of feet of wire, in the broader scheme of things I'm personally saving very little by putting batteries inside my tenders.

Now, I realize that you could use pneumatics instead of electrics for switch machines, as @sjbuff has mentioned in another thread (https://ogrforum.com/...5#159801037180313815), which is a good idea outdoors, and even signals if you go with pneumatically-operated semaphores, but you're eliminating very little complexity when you do either of these.

I'll stick with track power.  To many of us the phrase "Electric Trains" encompasses a bigger hobby than just the trains.

I'm saving the batteries for my R/C cars, planes and boats.  This is where they truly shine.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

If all you do is run trains around the layout on-board battery power is probably for you.  A separate forum for it on the OGR site it definitely a good idea as a result.

Many of us however also manage routes using powered switch machines to set switches up to enable our routes, just like the prototype.  Almost all of these machines being electric, they have to be wired.

Also, many of us manage movements with signals, again just like the prototype.  These all require wiring to function.

Unlike @Tom Tee's 1000's of feet of wire, in the broader scheme of things I'm personally saving very little by putting batteries inside my tenders.

Now, I realize that you could use pneumatics instead of electrics for switch machines, as @sjbuff has mentioned in another thread (https://ogrforum.com/...5#159801037180313815), which is a good idea outdoors, and even signals if you go with pneumatically-operated semaphores, but you're eliminating very little complexity when you do either of these.

I'll stick with track power.  To many of us the phrase "Electric Trains" encompasses a bigger hobby than just the trains.

I'm saving the batteries for my R/C cars, planes and boats.  This is where they truly shine.

Mike

you really dont know much about it

The method of powering locos is completely independent of layout complexity. My layout is as complicated as any and it makes no difference as to how the locos are powered. Hard wired control and/or TMCC/Legacy can be used to power layout artifacts while running battery powered locos.

Two thoughts, a miss matched system of batteries and chargers is asking for trouble.  The bike shop i work at refuses to work on e bikes for this and other reasons.  The bicycle trade magazine has an active debate on this topic.   Now getting back to trains and the prototype.   Signals on the prototype and mainline switches require some degree of wiring, locomotives on the other hand do not.  It could be argued on board battery power is more true to the prototype. I see this as an alternative not an all or nothing choice.  Just like with electric cars not for everyone but an increasingly viable alternative.   I have completed one conversion to date, the second will be done shortly.  RC seems to be a very robust well developed technology in several hobbies except the train world.  The only reason i can see for that is resistance by the users not an unsafe technology.

I really enjoy battery power trains.  Like the others here who either dabble or are hard core I would enjoy a forum to discuss solely this topic.  Unfortunately, we have been asking OGR for at least 2 years and hear, "That's not a bad idea" but then we never hear or see anything.  It seems unless you are Legacy, TMCC, DCS or Conventional, you are just some oddball freaks.  I have news folks... this stuff is wildly popular if you take your head out of OGR and look around the internet.  There are many different control systems to choose from that have compatibility with each other... Even MTH PS3 and Lionel Lionchief.  I myself have three MTH PS3 engines that run on battery.  While I don't have any, LionChief is probably the simplest of battery upgrades with nothing to buy except a battery, charger and a charge jack if you don't want to remove the battery form the engine.

I am more than willing to help anyone learn more.  I can answer many questions on BlueRail, RailPro and using LiIon (Not LiPo) batteries.   I have many videos on YT user my same user ID if you are interested... or just email me.

I've grown tired of the nay sayers telling me how to enjoy my hobby or what they perceive are my limitations because they don't have a clue what they are talking about.  I've enjoyed OGR for many, many years but lately find myself frequenting other forums where I can discuss this topic of BPRC with others who have a passion like myself.

Are you listening OGR?   You have an opportunity to grow and capture a different segment of the hobby to bring even more people together.  Unfortunately, more people here put us down and tell us how we are wrong for doing what we like.

I remember going through these same growing pains with RC airplanes 30 years ago.  I had this tiny underpowered foam 3 channel plane.  The glow fuel and gas fellas laughed... isn't that cute.  Now electric RC planes dominate the industry. 

Here is a video of my MTH PS3 battery operated trains using BlueRail.

Here is how I charge... No batteries ever leave the engine.

I'm having fun!  Are you?

Ron

@Ron045 posted:

Are you listening OGR?   You have an opportunity to grow and capture a different segment of the hobby to bring even more people together.  Unfortunately, more people here put us down and tell us how we are wrong for doing what we like.

I'm having fun!  Are you?

Ron

Ron,

I prefer battery powered engines.  I've converted two and I hope to convert some others.  I hope that manufacturers will start making making battery powered engines.  If not, I suppose that we will have to do our own conversions.

I must admit that converting an engine is a daunting task for many - perhaps for most.  It is also expensive.  This is especially true for the first conversion when you have to buy a controller plus a charger, etc.  The cost is offset by not having to buy transformer(s), command control system, lots of wiring and stuff to connect it with, etc.  However, if you already have all of these items it is hard to spend extra to convert.  

I think that battery power will become normal in time just like it has become normal with RC airplanes, drones, and many other toys.   NH Joe

@Ron045 posted:

I really enjoy battery power trains.  Like the others here who either dabble or are hard core I would enjoy a forum to discuss solely this topic.  Unfortunately, we have been asking OGR for at least 2 years and hear, "That's not a bad idea" but then we never hear or see anything.  It seems unless you are Legacy, TMCC, DCS or Conventional, you are just some oddball freaks.  I have news folks... this stuff is wildly popular if you take your head out of OGR and look around the internet.  There are many different control systems to choose from that have compatibility with each other... Even MTH PS3 and Lionel Lionchief. ...

I am more than willing to help anyone learn more.  I can answer many questions on BlueRail, RailPro and using LiIon (Not LiPo) batteries.   I have many videos on YT user my same user ID if you are interested... or just email me.

I've grown tired of the nay sayers telling me how to enjoy my hobby or what they perceive are my limitations because they don't have a clue what they are talking about.  I've enjoyed OGR for many, many years but lately find myself frequenting other forums where I can discuss this topic of BPRC with others who have a passion like myself.

Are you listening OGR?   You have an opportunity to grow and capture a different segment of the hobby to bring even more people together.  Unfortunately, more people here put us down and tell us how we are wrong for doing what we like.

Why all the anger, hate, and bitterness regarding a hobby that is supposed to be fun?

Have you offered to submit an article to OGR?  I'll bet that @Allan Miller would give it serious consideration.  Easy to complain about what someone else is (or isn't) doing - requires more effort to take the initiative and create some content.

Recently, the LCCA magazine published a series of articles about modifying engines for dead rail.  There's plenty of interest, but the information needs to be submitted by knowledgeable readers.