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I recently came into possession of a really nice early model MTH Shay. I run DCC, so I was buying it with the intent to upgrade it using a Loksound L decoder. This install turned out to be a lot of fun, so I thought it might be worth sharing.

For starters, the Shay was a perfect loco for my purposes - pristine cosmetically and virtually unused, so it was in great shape mechanically. And yet, inexpensive due to the obsolete electronics.

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I dug in right away and started planning the install. Here are the tender, chassis, and boiler in their original configurations:

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Here is the chassis:

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And here is the boiler, with the smoke unit and lighting board:

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The first thing I do is disassemble everything completely, so I have a good idea of what I'm working with as far as space, what needs to be wired where (particularly between engine and tender), where I want to connectorize things, and so on. I like to basically start with a blank slate, so everything comes out. Lights, PCBs, smoke unit, harnesses, brackets - nothing is spared! I save all the original boards and wiring, as it is frequently convenient to reuse some of the wiring and connectors for things like lights and so on.

Here is the bare boiler:

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And here is the chassis. I removed all the harnessing from the tether connector board and cleaned that up, and removed from the PCB but kept the motor leads.

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For this guy, I noticed two things pretty early on that influenced where I wanted to put the decoder. First, there are only five conductors in the tether. So if the decoder were to go in the tender like the original electronics, that would be impractical with all the stuff needed in the boiler. The other thing I noticed was that the decoder was a perfect drop in replacement for the lighting/smoke board! As in, almost exactly the same size and even hole locations. So I knew the decoder would go in the boiler.

Here is a test fit of the decoder in the boiler:

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Here is a pic of it in place alongside the smoke unit:

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With the decoder in the boiler, the only things needed in the tender are the rear light and the speaker. I prepared the tether connector board with leads for these. I connectorized these and the motor leads using standard header pin connectors to make it easy to remove the boiler.

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Then I went to work on the LED lighting. I use Brickstuff warm white LEDs for a lot of stuff. They are a bit pricey, but they are extremely convenient, as they are mounted on a small pcb along with a resistor, so you can just feed them 5V. Since the Loksound L has a 5V supply on it, this makes for a nice tidy install.

They fit perfectly in the headlamp/taillamp housings:

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And here are the cab and firebox lights. I put kapton tape over the cab light since I wanted a yellower tone for that:

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Here are the leads for the headlight, cab light, and firebox ready to be connected to the decoder:

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 At this point the decoder adapter board is ready to get stuff wired up to it. In this pic, the small red leads from the LEDs are soldered to the 5V supply, while each of their black leads is soldered to a function output on the decoder. The larger gray wires are the speaker wires, the red and black wires are the track pickups, the white and yellow are the motor leads, and the blue and green are for the rear light.

IMG_7199

Then I checked the wiring on the trucks, and reinstalled them on the chassis. The power and ground from the trucks run to a small PCB that I designed that has a couple screw terminals and a 16V TVS on it. I install these in all my locomotives, as it makes the wiring tidy and provides a bit of additional protection for the decoder. After tidying that stuff up, the chassis is ready for the boiler.

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At this point, still without the decoder installed, I hook up everything electrically between the boiler, chassis, and tender, and do continuity and isolation checks on the adapter board. This is a really good step to perform to ensure everything is wired properly and to avoid smoking a new decoder. Things to check include:

  • Isolation of ALL other connections from each of the two track pickups. This is vital, especially on older engines where the chassis was also the electrical return to the track for the original electronics.
  • Continuity of the red lead to the track pickups.
  • Continuity of the black lead to chassis ground.
  • Speaker continuity (5-10 ohms depending on the speaker)
  • Motor continuity (anywhere from 25 to about 200 ohms)
  • Lighting continuity. If using incandescent, look for a few ohms. If using LED, you can test using diode mode.

If that all checks out, install the decoder on the adapter board and physically install it in the locomotive. Here is the decoder installed in the boiler:

IMG_7204

Finally, just connect the pin header connectors and the boiler drops right onto the chassis!

Only one item left, and that's the tender. Pretty easy, since all of the electronics are in the boiler. Two of the leads from the tether go to the rear light, installed in the housing in the same manner as the headlight. The other two go to a substantially upgraded speaker:

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But then, what to do with all that empty space? Well, the trucks on the Shay tender are driven, so how about a couple of steel ingots for ballast, just for grins:

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And that's it!

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I've gotten some run time on it over the last couple weeks now, and it's sweet. I'll post a video when I get a chance, but it's a very smooth runner and just plain fun to operate and watch. The sounds with the Loksound and that big speaker are awesome, and you almost need time-lapse photography to see it creep along on speed step 1. 

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Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Very nice step by step installation!! Thanks for posting all the details and pictures. That really gives one a good idea of what all has to be done and how to do it. I have been thinking about trying DCC for a few years now and maybe one day I will get a chance to actually try out a system. It looks like you may have an NCE system? That is the one I have had my eye on for sometime now. I also want to add a shay to my layout!! I'll be looking forward to your video and sound posting, can't wait!

Edit: Just saw your post in another thread that you are using an NCE system. One question I have is: can a Lionel Powerhouse 180 be used for a power supply? NCE has/had a 10 amp power supply with very similar specs and I can't determine much difference, but still still curious about any differences you might be aware of. Thanks!

Last edited by rtr12

Nice write up! This is very intriguing and something I think I'll want to experiment with. I have couple questions:

1) can I retain conventional operation with basic Bell & Whistle functions? I run command but sometimes like using the old zw or z4000.

2) What kind of remote options exist for command control? I assume that there are dedicated handheld remotes, and smart phone apps?

Can you give some pointers on where a beginner should start with DCC in 3 Rail O Guage. (What to start with and what to steer clear of. How to program sounds and functions etc.)

Thanks for posting this and I look forward to the video!

rtr12 posted:

Very nice step by step installation!! Thanks for posting all the details and pictures. That really gives one a good idea of what all has to be done and how to do it. I have been thinking about trying DCC for a few years now and maybe one day I will get a chance to actually try out a system. It looks like you may have an NCE system? That is the one I have had my eye on for sometime now. I also want to add a shay to my layout!! I'll be looking forward to your video and sound posting, can't wait!

Edit: Just saw your post in another thread that you are using an NCE system. One question I have is: can a Lionel Powerhouse 180 be used for a power supply? NCE has/had a 10 amp power supply with very similar specs and I can't determine much difference, but still still curious about any differences you might be aware of. Thanks!

Yep, I have the PH10-R. I bought the starter set a while back, and have since added another booster and remote.

I am not familiar with the Lionel p/s, but the NCE p/s is huge and expensive! Here is what I use:

https://www.mouser.com/Product...Qex9otozfc7AWA%3d%3d

It is 24-30VDC, 13A output. Pretty compact, about the same size as the NCE units, and fanless. Really nice. I run it at 24V.

Soo Line posted:

Very nicely done Thor.  I'll need time to process all the information today on this issue which I find most interesting.

Maybe I missed it.....does the original smoke unit tie into the decoder and operate variably or just on/off?

Again ....well done !

Thanks and will look for that video.

I don't use smoke all that often, but I'm definitely going to do it on this guy. I haven't gotten that far yet, but I have done smoke on other engines with the ESU decoders, and it's pretty slick. I'll post some details when I get it done.

Alternatively, the PS1 smoke unit is just track powered, so you could run it like that with just an on/off switch if you wanted. It smokes like crazy!

Here's a video, finally:

I used the following sound file:

http://projects.esu.eu/project...views/search?q=73415

There is a demo sound file there, so you can get an idea for some of the additional sounds as well (there are a lot of them). This file is specifically for a Shay, but you could use any sound set you want, really. The steam chuffs can be synced to the shaft rotation with a couple settings in the decoder.

Here it is at low speed:

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Videos (2)
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thor73 posted:
rtr12 posted:

Very nice step by step installation!! Thanks for posting all the details and pictures. That really gives one a good idea of what all has to be done and how to do it. I have been thinking about trying DCC for a few years now and maybe one day I will get a chance to actually try out a system. It looks like you may have an NCE system? That is the one I have had my eye on for sometime now. I also want to add a shay to my layout!! I'll be looking forward to your video and sound posting, can't wait!

Edit: Just saw your post in another thread that you are using an NCE system. One question I have is: can a Lionel Powerhouse 180 be used for a power supply? NCE has/had a 10 amp power supply with very similar specs and I can't determine much difference, but still still curious about any differences you might be aware of. Thanks!

Yep, I have the PH10-R. I bought the starter set a while back, and have since added another booster and remote.

I am not familiar with the Lionel p/s, but the NCE p/s is huge and expensive! Here is what I use:

https://www.mouser.com/Product...Qex9otozfc7AWA%3d%3d

It is 24-30VDC, 13A output. Pretty compact, about the same size as the NCE units, and fanless. Really nice. I run it at 24V.

Thanks for the added info. The Lionel Powerhouse 180 is rated at 10 amps @ 18 VAC, which is the same as NCE's 'Brutus' power supply. The PH-180s also have an excellent breaker, very fast and I have a couple of extras. The PH-180s are priced at about the same as the P/S you linked here. $80-$90 (although I believe the price may have gone up in the latest Lionel catalogs). They are also fanless and smaller than the NCE unit.

Since you are using 24 VDC and 13 amps, I must have some more studying to do. I was thinking (due to NCE's recommended P/S) the P/S had to be AC? Since you are using DC that must not be correct on my part? I also thought that DCC was sort of PWM AC or something like that to the track for train use? Does one work better than the other (AC or DC)? All of my stuff is now DCS or Legacy and most of it is DCS/MTH PS3 so my first DCC trials would be with MTH PS3, which works on AC or DC and also DCC. 

Edit: Just went to the NCE site and the PH10-R is the set I was looking at as well. I just read the requirements on it again and see that it is either AC or DC so that answers my questions there. Going back to look around some more... Thanks again.

Last edited by rtr12
rtr12 posted:

Since you are using 24 VDC and 13 amps, I must have some more studying to do. I was thinking (due to NCE's recommended P/S) the P/S had to be AC? Since you are using DC that must not be correct on my part? I also thought that DCC was sort of PWM AC or something like that to the track for train use? Does one work better than the other (AC or DC)? All of my stuff is now DCS or Legacy and most of it is DCS/MTH PS3 so my first DCC trials would be with MTH PS3, which works on AC or DC and also DCC. 

Edit: Just went to the NCE site and the PH10-R is the set I was looking at as well. I just read the requirements on it again and see that it is either AC or DC so that answers my questions there. Going back to look around some more... Thanks again.

Yes, the PH10-R can take up to a 22VAC or 32VDC power supply. The PH10-R has an full wave bridge rectifier, so if your power supply is ac, the PH10-R will convert that to dc, then it uses that power to pulse the DCC signal as ac voltage to the track.  

The ac signal of DCC is completely different than the ac of a power supply, and is completely unusable as far as dcc is concerned.  DCC systems that can utilize an ac power supply will convert the ac into dc, then pulse that dc into dcc ac signals. It basically goes from ac to dc to pulse width modulated ac. 

 

That is amazing, and sounds more Shay like then the Legacy 2 truck Shay I have.

As for mixing command systems, I'm seeing all kinds of things.  TMCC+DCC no good, Legacy+DCC works but get feedback on Legacy sounds.  Which is it?  What is actually on the track in DCC, AC or DC?  If it's AC, why doesn't TMCC/Legacy, DCS, or conventional work?  Why do people seem surprised DCC works with 3 rails on the ground?  Is it possible to wire a layout to be DCC and Legacy, and have a switch to pick which one is in command?  What would happen to locomotives of the other command system when on the track?

My brother has gotten into N scale and has been doing DCC upgrades.  I've been really impressed with it.  If there is a way to mix DCC and Legacy, I would totally be on board upgrading my conventional locomotives to DCC.

A battery in the equation would allow "compatibility" which is really non-interference of command delivery...  There appears to be a couple of variants of wireless DCC control system out there -- not clear if any of these will work with O capable DCC boards.  TMCC/legacy is also wireless although while one imagine it may work by using some other antenna than a ground rail on the track -- i've never tried it.

Basically, there is no magic mix of systems that works with DCC.  DCC was never designed for inter-operability so trying to make DCC simultaneously work with another control system is a bit of a fool’s errand due to the uniqueness of the DCC signal on the rails. Possibly the only true foolproof system inter-operability is to use wireless DCC but with isolated battery power in the locomotive so the other control system can be run off the signal/power on the rails.

The DCC signal on the rails (see example DCC waveform image below but note that the voltage can be increased for the larger scales) is a type of AC (Alternating square wave with varying frequency) or it can also be considered as a bi-polar DC waveform (because, again, it is a bi-polar DC square wave with constant DC-type amplitude above and below the zero voltage).  Both interpretations are correct.   DCC across all the scales, especially HO, has a much greater following than all of the other proprietary O scale control systems combined so both speed control and sound has experienced much more R&D investment and this has paid off in both vastly superior speed control and sound quality under DCC.  It is also an open standard to boot, which has helped it flourish.

dcc-waveform1-300x135

Toggle switches/relays can be used to switch the signal to the rails between multiple system sources, e.g. I have done this in HO with analog DC and DCC on a modular layout but that was eventually scrapped as everyone pretty much went to full DCC for obvious reasons; wireless throttles, sound, great speed control, memory walk around with tethered throttles so you stay with your train instead of standing in just one place where the analog throttle was located while your train is on the other side of the layout, no more needing to flip toggle switches for block control, etc.

Worst case scenario that can occur when having two systems powering two different portions of the layout and an errant locomotive crosses the boundary is that it can possibly take out a DCC booster or the other system's booster, for that matter, if power back feeds into it from another control system’s power source by voltage traveling through the pickup system on the locomotive across the boundary and into the DCC powered track and eventually back to the booster.  Also, it is possible to smoke a decoder on the locomotive due to combining voltages from two different sources as it crosses the boundary.  Of course, this depends on the other system and what types of voltages it uses.  Best case scenario in this instance is that it causes a short circuit on both systems and the respective boosters shut down until the issue is resolved - your mileage may vary.

Scott

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  • dcc-waveform1-300x135: DCC Wave form
Hudson J1e posted:

Great job! That locomotive sounds awesome! What make and model of speaker did you use? 

Thanks! The speaker is a Visaton FRS5. It's the biggest thing I had available at the time, lol. I have a couple others that I ordered recently that I am going to try also, and see which I like best. I'll report back after I've tested them.

It helps having the whole tender to work with, thanks to the compact electronics.

sinclair posted:

That is amazing, and sounds more Shay like then the Legacy 2 truck Shay I have.

The Loksound sounds have been pretty amazing in every loco I have. If you haven't already, you can check out a sample recording of the sounds on the ESU website, they demo a bunch of effects like coal shoveling, water fill, dynamo, and so on that I didn't do in the video.

http://projects.esu.eu/project...views/search?q=73415

MJCAT posted:
rtr12 posted:

Since you are using 24 VDC and 13 amps, I must have some more studying to do. I was thinking (due to NCE's recommended P/S) the P/S had to be AC? Since you are using DC that must not be correct on my part? I also thought that DCC was sort of PWM AC or something like that to the track for train use? Does one work better than the other (AC or DC)? All of my stuff is now DCS or Legacy and most of it is DCS/MTH PS3 so my first DCC trials would be with MTH PS3, which works on AC or DC and also DCC. 

Edit: Just went to the NCE site and the PH10-R is the set I was looking at as well. I just read the requirements on it again and see that it is either AC or DC so that answers my questions there. Going back to look around some more... Thanks again.

Yes, the PH10-R can take up to a 22VAC or 32VDC power supply. The PH10-R has an full wave bridge rectifier, so if your power supply is ac, the PH10-R will convert that to dc, then it uses that power to pulse the DCC signal as ac voltage to the track.  

The ac signal of DCC is completely different than the ac of a power supply, and is completely unusable as far as dcc is concerned.  DCC systems that can utilize an ac power supply will convert the ac into dc, then pulse that dc into dcc ac signals. It basically goes from ac to dc to pulse width modulated ac. 

 

Thanks, I still need to do further studying, but this helps. Every little bit helps!! There is also a lot of info on the NCE site, which I need to visit a few more times. 

Severn posted:

A battery in the equation would allow "compatibility" which is really non-interference of command delivery...  There appears to be a couple of variants of wireless DCC control system out there -- not clear if any of these will work with O capable DCC boards.  TMCC/legacy is also wireless although while one imagine it may work by using some other antenna than a ground rail on the track -- i've never tried it.

Fun fact, I was successful at running the newer Lionel engines with the RCMC board on DCC powered track using the LEGACY remote all sounds and functions worked normally... I also tried a older TMCC loco with the modular set up inside. It also worked but the sound board did not like the high altering current. lots of electronic noise in the sound file but still received commands from the remote.

Last edited by Bruk

Bruk, can you expand on exactly what you did?  It sounds like you stuck a DCC signal on 3 rail track and made legacy go with that --- and something something something?

Also on Loksound -- they offer a programmer to change the decoders around including sounds.  I recall buying a decoder for HO and the shop guy demo'd it for me and we changed the sounds to some other european diesel just for the heck of it.

http://www.esu.eu/en/products/lokprogrammer/

I am curious about the speed control functions on DCC systems specifically does it have a "cruise control" feature that will maintain the locos speed as it climbs and descends hills and pulls through a curve ?

I love that function on ERR cruise commander and with its possible demise I'm wondering if DCC can fill that void? 

DCC sounds do offer a huge variety of sounds in comparison to the 0 gauge offerings and can be customized so the locos don't all sound similar...I find that a huge plus.

 

Severn posted:

Bruk, can you expand on exactly what you did?  It sounds like you stuck a DCC signal on 3 rail track and made legacy go with that --- and something something something

I mean thats what I basically did. I attached my NCE system to my test track with my LEGACY Base grounded normally. Threw a LEGACY Loco with a RCMC on the track, powered it, sat there waiting for a command, and then ran it as normal. Then I did the same thing with a early TMCC Loco. 

Bruk posted:
Severn posted:

Bruk, can you expand on exactly what you did?  It sounds like you stuck a DCC signal on 3 rail track and made legacy go with that --- and something something something

I mean thats what I basically did. I attached my NCE system to my test track with my LEGACY Base grounded normally. Threw a LEGACY Loco with a RCMC on the track, powered it, sat there waiting for a command, and then ran it as normal. Then I did the same thing with a early TMCC Loco. 

Did you then put a DCC locomotive on the track and it ran?  Then put both DCC and Legacy locomotives on the track and command them at the same time?

I've always kinda vaguishly assumed DC power would work at least as far as a power source goes.  Sometime back I had a lionel ready to run set and this came with a wall-wart and ready to run plug in the track.  I just assumed it was DC then.  However I already had some switches, a regular transformer, etc... The switch lights didn't quite work right is my memory.   So I went back to a transformer and eventually got the legacy base.  I don't have it handy but could look in the wall plug later to see what its output says ...

sinclair posted:
Bruk posted:
Severn posted:

Bruk, can you expand on exactly what you did?  It sounds like you stuck a DCC signal on 3 rail track and made legacy go with that --- and something something something

I mean thats what I basically did. I attached my NCE system to my test track with my LEGACY Base grounded normally. Threw a LEGACY Loco with a RCMC on the track, powered it, sat there waiting for a command, and then ran it as normal. Then I did the same thing with a early TMCC Loco. 

Did you then put a DCC locomotive on the track and it ran?  Then put both DCC and Legacy locomotives on the track and command them at the same time?

Yes. I didn't have any interference on the test track. Now on a Layout. I do not know how it will work but in theory it should.

So my tests conclude that I will be adding DCC control too my future Layout.

Last edited by Bruk
sinclair posted:

Whelp, this has inspired me to get a DCC command set I found for sale, and I ordered the LokSound L for  Lionel dockside to try my hand at converting.  But I have many questions since ESU doesn't have an up to date manual on their site.  THOR73, could you email me so I can ask you some questions.  Thanks.

I have also recently done the Lionel docksider! It's a great little engine. Runs great and has really good smoke. The boiler/chassis layout is also pretty decent, for such a small engine, and fairly accommodating of decoder, speaker, etc.

I my case at least, I did find it just a tad too small for the Loksound L, so I used the Loksound V4 (the standard HO version). Works great.

Been meaning to do a post on that one for a while also...

I recently got around to finishing up the smoke installation on this guy. It's a PS1 unit, so it took a bit of rework to get it ready for digital control. Additionally, two new components were required to bring it together - an inexpensive adjustable switching regulator module (commercially available), and a two channel power switch card that I designed, to ease the load on the decoder when switching larger loads.

First I refurbished and rewired the smoke unit itself. The teal/purple leads are for the two heating elements. The black wire is the common return.

IMG_7329

Then I stripped and cleaned the old PCB. I didn't need any of the electronics, but it serves as the mounting interface for the smoke unit, and it was also a convenient location to mount the new power switch board. In this pic of the assembled unit, the red and black leads are the power to the switch card, and the green and pink wires are the control inputs for the heaters and fan. The switch card itself is on the PCB beneath the smoke unit. The 5V regulator is off to the right.

IMG_7349

Test fit of the regulator and smoke unit in the boiler:

IMG_7350

I wired the fan control to two function outputs on the decoder. This gives me some nice options for controlling the fan, for example different smoke effects for idle, chuff, and in between chuffs, as well as independent remote on/off at idle and while running.

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Here it is with the decoder installed. The smoke unit is removable without removing the other components, and has sufficient length in the wiring to allow servicing.

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About at this point, I connected everything up to test, and realized there was a crazy resonance in the boiler somewhere being driven by the fan vibration. It was really loud. The fan itself, however, when not screwed into the boiler, was very quiet, almost inaudible. So I modified the mounting a bit, isolating the smoke unit PCB from the boiler with a bit of vinyl electrical tape, and securing it in place with hot glue, rather than screws.

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Another bench test showed everything performing well, and the fan noise significantly reduced. Finally, here is the boiler assembly ready to go on the chassis:

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After reassembling the engine and tweaking settings a bit, the finished result was pretty cool. (Video coming soon, I just realized the one I recorded is a bit too big to post...)

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We have smoke!   Nice!

Thanks again for doing this. I've been trying to finalize parts of my future layout. (still 1 to 2 years out,  after our move) The logging and mining sections were going to be On30, but after watching a number of o gauge logging layout videos, I decided I would probably want more "action" from the logging locos than the typical DCC On30 locomotive provided for, which meant going o gauge for the logging section.  (Plus I would be able to allow the log cars to be pulled to a further destination using the same o gauge track.) 

For the price of a single new PS3 shay (which includes DCC),  I could possibly upgrade 2 or 3 PS1 shays with DCC decoders and have a larger fleet.  I just wasnt sure how easy it would be without having done one before. So this is a big help. 

 

sinclair posted:

Could you post a wire diagram and parts list for connecting the smoke unit up please?  All the locomotives I want to convert and that have smoke are PS-1 equipped, so it should be the same.

Yeah, I was a bit light on specifics in this post, as I'm planning to do another topic on the details of the electrical and decoder configuration. I figure that's worth a separate topic, as it's applicable to any engine, not just this one.

thor73 posted:
sinclair posted:

Could you post a wire diagram and parts list for connecting the smoke unit up please?  All the locomotives I want to convert and that have smoke are PS-1 equipped, so it should be the same.

Yeah, I was a bit light on specifics in this post, as I'm planning to do another topic on the details of the electrical and decoder configuration. I figure that's worth a separate topic, as it's applicable to any engine, not just this one.

That would be fantastic!  Have you wired up electrocouplers too, and would you be including that in the write up?  My next two conversions are both PS-1 locomotives, a DL-109 and a Cab Forward.  They both have smoke and electrocouplers on them that I want to keep.

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