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Was searching last night on track cleaning methods.  Came across a post from April that has now been closed.  WOW!

 

Want to share what I did because it is a lesson in what not to do.  Maybe some of those chemists from that April post can weigh in.

 

I have been cleaning my track with denatured alcohol purchased at Walgreens....seemed somewhat household friendly and it works pretty good.  Well I can no longer buy it locally.  Went to Wal Mart and bought what is labeled S-L-X Denatured alcohol.  Much more industrial looking in its packaging  tin can.  Searched the web to see if I could find any difference between the two.   Did not find anything.  So I just used it on a good portion of my recently laid main line.  Went back a few days later, the center rail was rusted like it been outside for the past two years.  I found the thread that i referenced above last night and grabbed some WD-40 and goo gone and went to work.  Some places I was getting absolutely no power at all.  After alot of elbow grease and WD-40/goo gone  I am somewhat operational.  Some spots are still not that good and I am afraid I might have to replace some of the track.

 

I grabbed the WD and goo gone prior to reading the entire post.  After reading the entire post I am as confused as most everyone else. But this is what I think....

 

I am going to continue to use Wd-40 to get as much rust off as possible

I am going to use a scotch brite pad on the worst spots.

I am going to use Isopropyl alcohol for my regular cleaning

I may need to replace some selected track 

 

Note it did nothing to the two outer rails.  It will never be the same I hope it will be good enough.

 

Interested to hear if my plan is a good one or I should be doing something else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Since you've read the entire previous thread, is there a special reason you don't consider actual track cleaning fluid? Unless you have an insane amount of track, is the difference in price worth the headaches you have just been through?  (any any more you may encounter by experimenting with different cleaners?)

 

I know it's heresy to many, but I don't think we've read any horror stories of what happens when you use something like Life Like Track Cleaning fluid (or other brand).

 

-Dave

What probably happened is that you cleaned your track extremely well with the better product. Any and all protective oil coatings were removed. And you needed to have moisture. The brand you are talking about is an excellent cleaner for removing oils and is commonly used to dissolve shellac. Not sure what track you are using, but the middle rail had to have something that would rust. Which means either the plating was gone or never existed. What type of track are you using? Nothing corrosive in denatured alcohol. Unlike the water based Simple Green which is a caustic base. Ruins cast aluminum also.
Problem with the denatured alcohol is that it ignites easily and burns almost clear. That is the main reason alcohol torches are no longer used in industry. Not safe on the workbench if it is left burning unattended. I have an old one and it self pressurized itself. Unlike propane or map gas. Isopropyl comes in two types. 92% and 70% 3-M recommends using it diluted 50-50 with H2o prior to application of all there foam tapes as a pre cleaner. Very mild but will still defat your skin. A little moisturizer before and after is recommended it using it a lot.

denatured alcohol is alcohol with no water in it,  looks like you got a batch that still had some water in it. we clean miles of track with it and have no problems. on the bright side you can just run a sanding block lightly over the top of the rails so you have good conductivity and the rust (weathering) on the sides is a plus

Last edited by JohnS
Originally Posted by Ffffreddd:
Denatured alcohol fumes are not bad. Basically it is alcohol treated so people will not drink it to avoid paying ATF taxes. "made unnatural" Drinking is can cause vomiting , nausea and if you consume enough blindness.

I guess if your layout is  in an automotive paint shop, maybe not. I bought a quart of denatured alchohol and closed it back up after trying it 5 minutes. Its nasty stuff, anyone who wants it can come pick it up from me for free.

 

Its 91% isopropyl for my track, no noxious odors and it cleans the track just fine. Besides its been recommended for cleaning other "electronic" items like metal audio and video tape heads as well as CD's and DVD's for years, so why wouldn't it work for toy train track thats far less sensitive?

Originally Posted by JohnS:

denatured alcohol is alcohol with the water removed , looks like you got a batch that still had some water in it. we clean miles of track with it and have no problems. on the bright side you can just run a sanding block lightly over the top of the rails so you have good conductivity and the rust (weathering) on the sides is a plus

denatured alcohol is ethanol with a chemical added to make it undrinkable. Commercial denatured alcohol contains about 5% water. Ethanol forms an azeotrope with water limiting the maximum concentration of ethanol to 96% by simple distillation.

I've been using Isopropal 99% alcohol for track cleaning but now that I've painted a lot of rails and turnouts I'm concerned it will also wipe off paint from the rails.  So I'll probably be trying regular track cleaning fluids and see if that works.

 

When I had some rust, I cleaned the area with lacquer thinner, then treated it with a Rustolum special treatment that killed the rust and left the rail black in that spot.

 

The problem with using steel wool is it leave micro-fibers of steel that the gears and axles pick up.

Dave good point on the cleaner...it just so happens I have Isopropyl here will have to order the track cleaner

 

The question still is there a difference between the little bottle of denatured alcohol i buy at walgreens that is in a clear bottle like rubbing alcohol and the other stuff in a can.

 

This is for the most part brand new gargrave track that has gone from smooth to rusted and pitted.

 

I certainly don't know anything about the science of it...I just know what it did to my track and I am not quite sure why.

 

 

The short answer is no. Different manufacturers may use different concentrations of contaminates but not likely to cause the corrosion. I would go with the pitting theory. Steel rusts. You cleaned it to well. Lol And diluting the isopropyl makes it safer on the paint. Assuming it is dry and not a shellac based finish. Use it all the time and diluted or not, it all evaporates quickly. If you want a "waterless cleaner", use acetone, It also burns but is really not that bad for you in moderation. Otherwise millions of women would not use it to remove nail polish. And it is sometimes used as a solvent for muscle ointments like Absorbine Jr. I use
Originally Posted by Ffffreddd:
Denatured alcohol fumes are not bad. Basically it is alcohol treated so people will not drink it to avoid paying ATF taxes. "made unnatural" Drinking is can cause vomiting , nausea and if you consume enough blindness.

Are you kidding! That's not the popular opinion, and just taking a whiff of each, I know which one I prefer to work with!

 

Let's see what the Denatured Alcohol MSDS says.

 

OSHA Regulatory Status: This material is classified as hazardous under OSHA regulations.

 

Potential Health Effects (Acute and Chronic)

 

Inhalation Acute Exposure Effects:

Vapor harmful. May cause dizziness, headache, watering of eyes, irritation of respiratory tract, irritation to the eyes, drowsiness, nausea, other central nervous system effects, spotted vision, dilation of pupils, and convulsions.


Skin Contact Acute Exposure Effects:
May cause irritation, drying of skin, redness, and dermatitis. May cause symptoms listed under inhalation. May be absorbed through damaged skin.

 

Eye Contact Acute Exposure Effects:
May cause irritation.


Ingestion Acute Exposure Effects:
Poison. Cannot be made non-poisonous. May be fatal or cause blindness. May produce fluid in the lungs and pulmonary edema. May cause dizziness, headache, nausea, drowsiness, loss of coordination, stupor, reddening of face and or neck, liver, kidney and heart damage, coma, and death. May produce symptoms listed under inhalation.

Chronic Exposure Effects:
May cause symptoms listed under inhalation, dizziness, fatigue, tremors, permanent central nervous system changes, blindness, pancreatic damage, and death.

Contrast that to what the Isopropyl Alcohol MSDS says.

Potential Acute Health Effects:
Hazardous in case of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant, sensitizer, permeator).

 

Potential Chronic Health Effects:
Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (sensitizer). CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: A4 (Not classifiable for human or animal.) by ACGIH, 3 (Not classifiable for human.) by IARC. MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Classified Reproductive system/toxin/female, Development toxin [POSSIBLE].  The substance may be toxic to kidneys, liver, skin, central nervous system (CNS). Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage.

Last edited by gunrunnerjohn
Hi John, the key word is ACUTE. Drinking good old alcohol in general has pretty much the same issues. Acute alcohol poisoning is fatal and does in many a foolish teen or college student every year. And the denatured is made poisonous Intentionally so you do not drink it. And put just about any household cleaner in your eye and see if you don't get similar symptoms.

Rubbing alcohol contains oil .... as does the lower % isopopyls ... 99% doesn't have any oils.

 

And nothing cleans like lacquer thinner ... if you are brave ... and very careful ... it removes EVERYTHING!

 

Breathing all those fumes over the decades ... paint thinner, hot solvents at the roundhouse ... alcohol ... no wonder my brain rotted away working on trains .... :-)

 

Originally Posted by Kerrigan:

Rubbing alcohol contains oil .... as does the lower % isopopyls ... 99% doesn't have any oils.

 

And nothing cleans like lacquer thinner ... if you are brave ... and very careful ... it removes EVERYTHING! 

I also agree on the use of Lacquer Thinner. It works great and doesn't leave any residue, i.e. oil film on the rail heads. The only product I have ever used that is even better than Lacquer Thinner, or denatured alcohol, has been a Zep product called ID Red. You can generally find ID Red in automotive shops that do a lot of brake rebuild work, as the ID Red will wash away any and all brake dust, road grime, and oils/greases, and leave no residue. The original intended use for ID Red was/is for electric contractor & motor cleaning, since it dries EXTREMELY FAST, and leaves nothing behind.

Great tip; thanks!
 
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by Kerrigan:

Rubbing alcohol contains oil .... as does the lower % isopopyls ... 99% doesn't have any oils.

 

And nothing cleans like lacquer thinner ... if you are brave ... and very careful ... it removes EVERYTHING! 

I also agree on the use of Lacquer Thinner. It works great and doesn't leave any residue, i.e. oil film on the rail heads. The only product I have ever used that is even better than Lacquer Thinner, or denatured alcohol, has been a Zep product called ID Red. You can generally find ID Red in automotive shops that do a lot of brake rebuild work, as the ID Red will wash away any and all brake dust, road grime, and oils/greases, and leave no residue. The original intended use for ID Red was/is for electric contractor & motor cleaning, since it dries EXTREMELY FAST, and leaves nothing behind.

 

Sigh. How do some guys get their track so dirty/rusty, anyway?

 

I have GG track laid in 1990 in my 12X24 RR building; I live on the so-called "humid, salty-air" Gulf Coast (usually exaggerated, BTW, unless you're on the actual beach at Gulf Shores); my RR building is heated/cooled/open to the air as appropriate; the building is reasonably weatherproof, but not up to House standards; I have -never- been plagued with particularly bad rust - none, most of the time.

 

Here's the straight skinny:

 

1 - best rust remover is Use the Railroad.

2 - best grunge remover is a fine sanding "sponge" block, used with moderate  pressure.

     Many say that one should never use an abrasive, but they are wrong. (At least

     on steel track, like GG.) Also, don't lean on it like you're doing auto body work.

3 - equally good grunge remover is WD40 (recommended by M. Reagan of Lionel).

     Mineral spirits on a clean rag will do a good job. These petroleum-based

     products are the best way to go.

4 - water/alcohol-based products (like Windex) I try to avoid.

5 - moderation of application and a whole s**tpile of common sense will do your track

     the most good. 

6 - how does this subject get so complicated? Always? Heck, firmly rubbing a clean, dry          

     cloth (not terrycloth) over the track will help.

    

Originally Posted by pennsyk4:
Originally Posted by Kerrigan:
 
Where did you get this information. Do not believe it is correct.

Rubbing alcohol contains oil .... as does the lower % isopopyls

Pennsyk4,

 

You're absolutely correct. There is no oil in rubbing alcohol. It is called by that name because it's safe to rub on your body. 

 

http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemicalcomposition/f/What-Are-The-Ingredients-In-Rubbing-Alcohol.htm 

When I rub it on my skin when done there is an slight oily feel ... and I was always told it has a little oil in it as it is "rubbing alcohol" and meant to be used as a rub on skin.  If you have ever rubbed your skin with 99% and then rubbing alcohol on the other arm, doesn't one leave the skin dry dry and the other not so dry? 

 

Perhaps there is no difference except a little more water in the rubbing alcohol ...

 

So it would make no difference which one I used I guess .... unless I want to leave water on the rails when the alcohol evaporates?

 

Sounds like six of one, half-dozen of the other ....

It's hard to find the exact mechanism in play here not being a chemist.  I found this quote...

 

"The exact mechanism is that they are highly soluble in one another (since both have hydroxyl groups ie. -OH), although ethanol has a lower boiling (vaporization) temperature than water, hence evaporates more quickly at the same temperature, and has to take some water vapor along with it to do so."

 

I know that just using 91% Isopropyl Alcohol to clean track or many other things, it evaporates very quickly and doesn't appear to leave any residue.

 

One factor that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that when you remove all the oils and any other surface contaminate from steel, it will tend to rust more quickly as a rule.  Any surface oil will actually inhibit rust.

 

Oiling the track to prevent rust ... now there's a thought ... might be a little tough on traction tires ... ;-)
 
Since adding the dehumidifier to the train room our rust problems ceased, keeping the humidity at about 50%.
 
I'm concerned about the weathering paint I put on the rails being washed off with anything but track cleaning fluid, which contains who knows what ...
 
Perhaps just the abrasive pad track cleaner from now on ...
 
Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

It's hard to find the exact mechanism in play here not being a chemist.  I found this quote...

 

"The exact mechanism is that they are highly soluble in one another (since both have hydroxyl groups ie. -OH), although ethanol has a lower boiling (vaporization) temperature than water, hence evaporates more quickly at the same temperature, and has to take some water vapor along with it to do so."

 

I know that just using 91% Isopropyl Alcohol to clean track or many other things, it evaporates very quickly and doesn't appear to leave any residue.

 

One factor that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that when you remove all the oils and any other surface contaminate from steel, it will tend to rust more quickly as a rule.  Any surface oil will actually inhibit rust.

 

 

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