Derailments - again

Not sure what method you used for superelevating the curves,  Does the superelevation begin after the train enters the curve, or slightly before?

Number 90 posted:

Not sure what method you used for superelevating the curves,  Does the superelevation begin after the train enters the curve, or slightly before?

Tom,

Coming out of  a curve entering  a straight which begins with a switch.  I banked the elevated curves by offsetting the feet of the trestles, if you know what I mean. One higher than the other.  The confounding part of this is that it just started happening out of nowhere.

Can you undo the elevation?   I know it looks neat but unless you have really broad curves and a transition into and out of the curve  some engines  just don't like  it.   Yep! weather can affect you bench work .

More weight; NMRA says an O scale car should weight 5 ounces plus 1 ounce per inch of length. A 40 foot car of about 10 actual inches would weight almost a pound. I doubt many Lionel O and O-27 cars come close to this while suffer the indignity of much tighter radius turns (thus greater wheel to track forces) than scale O counterparts do. Plus we have couplers that mount and pull from the truck bolster fastener (if not actually a rigid part of the truck) rather than the car frame a distance from the truck. All this puts a lot of complication into pulling a long train around a tight uphill curve. I doubt any super elevation short of what looks like it came from a NASCAR circle track will have sufficient effect on this problem.

Bogie

Gregg posted:

Can you undo the elevation?   I know it looks neat but unless you have really broad curves and a transition into and out of the curve  some engines  just don't like  it.   Yep! weather can affect you bench work .

The layout requires elevated track.  I can undo the banking though

OldBogie posted:

More weight; NMRA says an O scale car should weight 5 ounces plus 1 ounce per inch of length. A 40 foot car of about 10 actual inches would weight almost a pound. I doubt many Lionel O and O-27 cars come close to this while suffer the indignity of much tighter radius turns (thus greater wheel to track forces) than scale O counterparts do. Plus we have couplers that mount and pull from the truck bolster fastener (if not actually a rigid part of the truck) rather than the car frame a distance from the truck. All this puts a lot of complication into pulling a long train around a tight uphill curve. I doubt any super elevation short of what looks like it came from a NASCAR circle track will have sufficient effect on this problem.

 

Bogie

Thanks Bogie.  Looks like lose the banks or add weight...

Ponz

What do you mean by a slight grade?? What is the grade percentage?? You say the cars are lifting on the outside going up but not going down. Are you using the same cars or have you changed them out. How many cars behind the engine. Sometimes with a lot of cars as the train goes up the weight ratio gets heavier  on a curve the cars would have a tendency to lift up and roll off to the inside, especially if you have your heavier cars at the end of the train and the lighter ones up front. Going down just the opposite, weight on the engine. So if things were fine before maybe you changed the mix of cars. Just some thoughts......................Paul

Ponz posted:

Well, I had everything perfect for a while.  Then I started to landscape the board.  Ya know, grass, trees, shrubs, etc.....

Now, up on a trestle, going around one particular curve, pulling a 'slight grade, in ONE direction, the outside wheels are lifting off the track!  While going in the opposite direction there isn't an issue.  Mind you, I slightly bank all of my curves.

Just my opinion but, unless you have extremely broad curves ( say 0120 or larger diameter), super elevation is simply NOT worth all the headaches. 

My mind is blown.  I thought all was well.  Again - outside wheels lifting causing derailments.  Could the weather be affecting the board, lifting my banks even more??

Ponz

 

Ponz posted:

Well, I had everything perfect for a while.  Then I started to landscape the board.  Ya know, grass, trees, shrubs, etc.....

Now, up on a trestle, going around one particular curve, pulling a 'slight grade, in ONE direction, the outside wheels are lifting off the track!  While going in the opposite direction there isn't an issue.  Mind you, I slightly bank all of my curves.

My mind is blown.  I thought all was well.  Again - outside wheels lifting causing derailments.  Could the weather be affecting the board, lifting my banks even more??

Ponz 

Some photos of your railroad and equipment would be worth a million words.

I've used super-elevation on HO and N scale layouts with no problems. It does improve the appearance of trains on curves. I haven't used super-elevation on my O-gauge layouts only because those layouts are not 'permanent' (track not fastened down). No reason why super-elevation can't work for O-gauge, especially with large flanges on 3-rail equipment.

It's not rocket science to trouble-shoot derailment issues. You need to methodically check wheel and track gauge, track alignment, flangeway clearances, wheelsets swivel freely, check for rolling stock irregularities, etc.

Check the trucks. Maybe they are too tight. Not enough lateral motion will cause the wheels on 3 rail cars to lift off the track on curves. Also, make sure you have enough weight as previously stated. Good luck!    

OK guys- thanks for all the advice.  It was a combination of all that was suggested above.  It was very time consuming, but I've corrected the issue.  Swapping out cars, shimming certain portions of track, reversing cars, eliminating cars. 

I'm not too far from posting some pics of this small layout.  Just a bit more scenery to add.

Many thanks - Ponz

You have encountered a reason why superelevation is generally not recommended.  I beleive it was Lionel's 1940's masterpiece book, Model Railroading, which stated the reason:  It permits the loco to straighten out the train by pulling it from the tracks.  When I ignored the book back in the last century, I found out Lionel was correct.

It's called "string lining".  Super elevating your track exacerbates the problem already caused by a curve, and a grade.  You are asking for trouble with all three of those conditions being present.  To begin with always weight your rolling stock to NMRA standards and oil the bearings before putting them on the layout.

Dennis

RJR posted:

You have encountered a reason why superelevation is generally not recommended.  I beleive it was Lionel's 1940's masterpiece book, Model Railroading, which stated the reason:  It permits the loco to straighten out the train by pulling it from the tracks.  When I ignored the book back in the last century, I found out Lionel was correct.

What did I know?  I've never heard the term until now.  And that's exactly what was happening!

Ponz

It's been said that it is a tinkerer's hobby.  How true that is anymore is debateable.  Nice job on your tinkering.  On to the next job...