Digital electronic grading article

Are you buying the electronics or the Train?  What is the value of a 10 versus a 8?  If an Premier PS-1 was upgraded to a PS-2 or 3 wouldn't that be like a 12.   Not sure much worth in this, you compare electronics based on what you like.  Some like a BCR so they would give more points, others prefer battery so they would give less, and of course some are all about originality regardless of the benefit of new electronics.  Then you can get into sound files, is it the original, is it non original but now has quillable whistle and crossing sounds?  The list goes on.  G

Hi GGG,

You are absolutely correct in your points.  But its like the TCA and others grading for engines and rolling stock that's subjective.  For instance a pristine engine but the rollers show some wear, so does that take it out of the C10 class etc. (not to debate this as I don't grade engines anyway)?  Or someone might appreciate that a C9 object is weathered, others would consider object ruined into the C1 or C2 category.  Someone might be picky about the electronics for whatever personal reason, but not so concerned about outward appearances. 

Each to his own.  Just threw out this topic to see what others might say.  Doubt that my  E-xx list will ever see the light of day incorporated in TCA, LCCA etc grading schemes, but hey, we can have a little fun here.  Maybe see what Ed Boyle might chime in with.

Expanding somewhat on GGG topic, when he mentions about if someone would care if engine electronics were original.  Maybe a stretch here, but would be like buying what was an original "five tube gutless wonder" radio, only to remove the back and find the electronics replaced with a transistor chassis. Works and sounds same, but not the same.

P.S. for the younger set, the five tube wonder was a superhetrodyne radio (Google superhetrodyne) that could operate on AC or DC voltage using as few components as possible (cheep, cheep), and no matter the make, schematics were pretty much alike.  Once you repaired a few, the rest were easy fixes.  I earned money in high school fixing them, even a few TV sets to boot.  Golly, I feel really old now.

Spoke to Ed Boyle at the LCCA Convention this past July and believe this would benefit every seller and buyer.As mentioned by others the list could go on and on  and split hairs. This group I believe would finally make the decisions on those issues and of course set the stage for further improvements. 

Hope to be involved in this group 

I am not into any of the train electronics, but I can see where both operators and collectors of that sort of stuff would care about the state of the electronic parts. But other than an item being as delivered and fully functional, I don't think you can summarize the state of the electronics with a grading scale. A full description is going to be in order.

One problem with a "full description" is that it's likely most sellers couldn't actually describe accurately what condition they're in.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

One problem with a "full description" is that it's likely most sellers couldn't actually describe accurately what condition they're in.

Re-assign E-1 as "electronics and/or sound file(s) unknown, as is, where is, caveat emptor".  Would be analogous to the TCA's C-1 grade of junk or parts category.  Re-arrange the  E-xx categories to suit. 

P.S.,  glad to have met you at York John.

I'm waiting for all the items listed as C-10 and E-10 at the same time.

"Yes, it's absolutely mint and unused, with all functions track tested and working, of course!"

In seriousness, this would be a useful category for operators. Here are my suggestions:

E-10 should require that the electronics and sound be not only functional, but absolutely 100% stock. I recently bought an MPC steamer just so I could have that odd early 70s electronic whistle. I would have been very disappointed if someone had upgraded it!

E-9 might be a category for fully functional altered versions of the stock electronics, with a brief description of what was changed or upgraded, e.g.: E-9, Proto 3, or E-9, Railsounds 5.

E-8: Stock electronics with some function not working, e.g, E-8, Whistle Steam.

E-7 would then be for altered/upgraded electronics with some missing functionality. This would be written like a combination of grades 9 and 8. Thus, E-7  TMCC / Front electrocoupler would mean both that it has TMCC (which it did not come with) and that the front electrocoupler (which should have been added with TMCC) no longer works.

E-6 would be for your "bricks." Pieces which have not been altered, but which have been tested and do not work. Any piece which is untested is presumed not to work and cannot be graded above E-6.

E-5 is for engines which have been downgraded to conventional.

E-1, as-is, no guarantees, try your luck.

The thread tying these grades together is that even numbers are stock and odd numbers (other than E-1) are altered.

nickaix posted:

The thread tying these grades together is that even numbers are stock and odd numbers (other than E-1) are altered.

I like that scheme of odd and even numbering. 

I think it deviates from the other grade systems too much and the odd /even footnote will be missed. The numerical ID should reflect desirability by a COLLECTOR, vs operator.

An additional operator based suffix a, b, c, d, etc might be needed to be easier and fully understood intuativly.

But as is, and without deep thought......

E 10 as delivered on a never run train to mesh with C10 respectivly. You can quibble over insulation trimming, crimps, wire paths, wire color, and solder beads. (Really, techs look) But, like C-10, you don't know it works till you make a C-E-9 out of it. There's always the fact, a components last session may have been it's last session. Unlike electromechanical, modern tech is a bit unpredictable in it has less visual confirmation on condition.

9 tested, working , as delivered.

8 working with a lesser glitch, as delivered. Upgraded with same mfg software. (U might be a handy suffix)

7 repaired to stock, mfg software upgrade now downgraded again (mfg) working.

6 repaired with outsourced parts or reputable non-mfg. software, fully functional, "upgraded" (wire size, plug quality/style etc.).

5 non original boards, upgrades for parts included, 100℅ operational board. I.e. no function skipped. Board has its Mfg software.

4 same as 5 but some operations skipped that could be applied. Non proven software, incorrect but highly functioning parts ( includes "overkill" )

3 known issue, repairable. Glitch but highly functional.

2  known issue, repair status unknown, operation suffers, original parts.

1 parts only, anything goes.

0 something is cooked badly, just buy it to gawk and laugh at it.

So do you guys open a Pre War or Post War Lionel C-10 engine to inspect internal gears, smoke unit, e-unit, do you disassemble those parts to see if the element or drum is original?  By the way C-10 is new.  So there should be no run marks on the roller or wheels. 

If you really feel the need for a code system I would recommend a simple 3-4 codes.  Original, modified, upgraded, DO NOT KNOW (probably the largest category from the sellers I saw at York).  G

So do you guys open a Pre War or Post War Lionel C-10 engine to inspect internal gears, smoke unit, e-unit, do you disassemble those parts to see if the element or drum is original? By the way C-10 is new. So there should be no run marks on the roller or wheels.---GGG

BINGO! Though my list doesn't fully reflect that, those are my basic thoughts on "10"; 100℅ unmolested, get your nicest white gloves on, perfect.

I think stopping at E 9 or even E8 might help to avoid confusion if many tiers of grading are wanted. That way a C-10 stays a C-10, no "ifs".

Letter suffix and a general operators grade scale in combo could be an option that would span eras better, though there would be some overlap into the C category, it could serve to strengthen the emphasis between collectors and operators, a long, if not the longest, running debate about grading I know of.