Dilema Removing a Truck From a Lionel Dash-9 Diesel!

Hi Rod,

   I had worked on an engine like this a very long time ago, I'm trying to remember how i was able to get the truck off. Question when you turn the truck do you see a mounting plate attached to the underside of the frame with mounting screws?

Alex

No sign of any mounting plate like that Alex.

In the pic below, when I pry in the location shown with a flat blade screwdriver, I can get the collar of the D swivel plate to move about 1/8" up from the truck, but it's like its compressing a spring or something somewhere.   

I don't want to push it too far for fear of breaking something. I know that the screw under the power pickup is attached to the collar of the swivel plate because I can see the screw head move with the collar when I pry them apart. I also tried taking the other truck and motor apart to see if I could learn anything from that, but it is exactly the same weird design. This engine is a good old workhorse that I like running at train shows. So I would really like to get it fixed if I can. I suspect the screws that dropped out of the motor are still captive under the D plate, as I can kind of see them thru the screw holes. the worm on the motor looks to be in good shape, and I think it's an easy fix if I could just figure out how to separate the swivel D plate from the truck.

Thanks, Rod

go here:

Lionel Diagrams

Granted it's the SD60, but I think it's the same or very similar truck.   It shows all the parts..

It looks like the plate is part of a bigger piece.  I'd stop prying on it.

Without one in front of me, this is all the help I can suggest.

Look in the slots, there are a couple more screws to remove the trucks on many Lionel diesels.  Note the picture of the truck, there are two screws on the left that remove the top plate to drop the truck.  Then that top plate comes up through the hole.  As I recall, you have to take the roller off as well.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Look in the slots, there are a couple more screws to remove the trucks on many Lionel diesels.  Note the picture of the truck, there are two screws on the left that remove the top plate to drop the truck.  Then that top plate comes up through the hole.  As I recall, you have to take the roller off as well.

Yes John i think that's it, the only way this truck can be removed is from the top. It was driving me crazy all night trying to remember how this truck comes off. A thin Phillips screwdriver through the slot to reach the screws.

Alex

Thanks all for the help and suggestions.

David that truck diagram on page B-90-3 looks pretty well right on, and the upper swivel plate appears to have a large tab behind the motor that affixes to the main truck frame by way of a longish screw that goes thru from the top and attaches the rear power pickup underneath the truck. So I will try removing that screw and see what happens.

"When in doubt; use a bigger hammer!"

Rod

Some you just have to remove the pickup screw, others you have to remove several other screws to remove that top plate.

One "bonus" here is the wheels are now loose, the bushings fall out, and it's somewhat of a PITA to align everything and get the truck back together!  There is a flat spot on the bronze bearing that has to be in the proper place.  Thanks Lionel for a really stupid truck design!

Rod,
I don't have any solution to your problem, other than my having had the same repair dilemma that you have.
And I'm sorry, but to add aggravation, to your current aggravation, unintentionally.
I believe, that the genius who thought-up of the constructive design of your motor and truck, is the same genius who, also, thinks-up and designs puzzles!!
Ralph

Yep a royal PITA! I am wrestling with the same truck configuration on the E5/E6's.

look on your second picture there is a fastener that John describes it comes from the top of the truck and holds the roller pick ups on. They are only accessible by the slots in the frame.

My previous owner stripped out the Philips cap head screw!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Some you just have to remove the pickup screw, others you have to remove several other screws to remove that top plate.

One "bonus" here is the wheels are now loose, the bushings fall out, and it's somewhat of a PITA to align everything and get the truck back together!  There is a flat spot on the bronze bearing that has to be in the proper place.  Thanks Lionel for a really stupid truck design!

Would this be the same on a 2002 Scale F3 A unit?, a buddy has one where one motor has come loose.

It's on a lot of them, but others just have the one motor mount screw.  I don't know by heart all the variations, I just take them as they show up on the repair bench.

If you have an exact Lionel product number, you can look it up in replacement parts and get a picture of the truck, that's what I did for Rod's truck.

Well it took a couple of hours but I got it done. Just for documentary purposes I took a few more pics.

After I removed the rear power pickup screw it came apart like this, with some finagling to get the D plate swivel part out of the hole in the frame. Plus the front power pickup wire goes thru a tiny hole in the front of the D plate, so I had to cut it.

This pic gives a pretty good look at the parts laid out for hopeful reassembly. Examination of the worm and driven gear showed them to be in fine shape, and both motor mount screws were there; they only had to be fished out of the gearbox where they had fallen.

Once you fasten the motor to the swivel D plate there is no way it will fit back thru the hole in the frame (don't ask how I found his out! ) So you have to put the frame on its side, fit the swivel plate back in, then fasten the two motor screws thru and into the motor, like below. Putting the truck up on blocks allows aligning the flats on the driven axle bushings (must be downwards facing) and prevents them from moving during reassembly.

Next you place the frame and motor assembly over the truck and slip the worm pinion thru the hole in the swivel plate. The rear power pickup screw is inserted and tightened along with the front screw which is only accessible from the bottom of the truck. It would be handy to have about 4 hands for this job, but with a little BS&T it can be done, on about the 3rd or 4th attempt. It should look like this when done:

I had to splice the power wire I had cut, as above, then the rest of the reassembly is straightforward. The guy who designed this style truck should get some sort of award for "most unserviceable design of the year" or something. It is definitely a gong show effort. MTH power trucks are a breeze by comparison, not trying to start any brand wars or anything; just saying.

I'll try it out later today and see if it works!

Rod

I was trying to figure out how to get the couplers changed from conventional to electrocouplers on the trucks of a LIONEL DASH 9 Diesel. I can not find the screws that hold the plate on the couplers.

Andrew

Rod, I feel for the experience.  You can't imagine the first time I tried to take one of these off, it escapes me why such a convoluted design! 

Andrew; you should be able to use the same electrocouplers as are found on this engine, along with the necessary screws. If you search for the product number above it will take you to a blow up picture with all parts and PN's listed. Assuming yours is a TMCC, you will have to wire the couplers to the motherboard to the correct sockets. Let us know what MoBo you have and we can likely point you in the right direction. One common diesel mobo is 691-PCB1-11E. If it's not TMCC you may have a problem with the conversion as far as actuating the couplers is concerned.

John; thanks for all your thoughts and guidance throughout this whole ordeal. I have minimal Lionel diesels compared to MTH, and just never encountered this weird truck design before. Good news is I did not have to remove the truck sides to separate the truck in the end, though this would have been easy enough to do. I hope I never have to service one of these puppies again!

Rod

falconservice posted:

I was trying to figure out how to get the couplers changed from conventional to electrocouplers on the trucks of a LIONEL DASH 9 Diesel. I can not find the screws that hold the plate on the couplers.

Andrew

I have the DASH-9 electrocouplers if you need some.

I have the Electro-couplers. This is one of the Conventional to TMCC RailSounds upgradeable DASH 9s that Lionel had produced in CHINA.

The upgrade was stalled because I was not sure how many parts to remove to get to the couplers.

Andrew

I am having one hell of a time trying to replace the motor in my 18286 Dash 9. I still cannot figure out how to remove the front motor from the truck.

As I remember, there is a Phillips screw deep in and along side the pickup roller (from the outside bottom of the truck) which has to be removed. There is barely enough room to get a standard PH2 screwdriver on it. I used a PH1 very strongly pushing so that it didn't slip to get the screw out. Dumb design.,

I believe those are like Chuck says, you have to take the truck apart to get it off the body.  As I recall, you end up removing the bottom of the truck before you can get to the screws that remove the motor from the mount.  The Lionel trucks of similar design are a major PITA to work on.

I removed all the bottom screws, even the one that holds the roller,but my motor wont budge. Should I try taking off the side frames?

There's a screw that is next to the pickup screw that you also have to take out in some of them.

When I get home, I will take another photo from the underside. This engine only has 1 pick up on the front truck, I removed it, but I still cant get the motor out.

Well I was able to get the old motor out and replaced. After putting everything back together and getting the engine on the track, there is a short somewhere, because the circuit breaker on my transformer pops and the front center roller gets hot as hell. Ugghh now I have to trace everything to see whats going on...and there is no room anywhere to do anything :-)

Are we having fun yet?

I'd look at the roller and the insulators on both sides of the truck, could be you've lost one.

This design is the worst and has vexed people since the Dash 9 first came out 16 years ago. On the ones I've seen there's a little notch at the apex of the curved slot where the pick up wires pass through the frame. Straighten the truck and that notch is like an index for where to place the screw driver to release that hidden screw in the top of the truck block. 

By the way some Atlas models use this design too, including the four axle Dash 8s.  Underscoring the importance of proper re-assembly, I bought an Atlas Dash 8 that ran hot. After pulling the shell I found the rear motor barely turned.  I dropped the truck and reseated everything and solved the problem. The factory hadn't assembled it correctly, I guess. Not a good design.

RM

Believe it or not, this old thread came in handy tonight.  Thanks forumites.

Another veteran of the Lionel truck wars joins the club!

This old thread helped me out today.  I started an PS3 upgrade on a Lionel TMCC SD70M that I’ve had for 10 years and finally bought the kit  to do it.  I looked at the pictures and read the posts but I still was having a hard time understanding.  Finally I figured out that I could remove the grommet in the frame to access the screw that is opposite the pickup roller.   Got both couplers upgraded and the trucks back on the frame only to find no continuity between the two pickup rollers on the rear truck.  The wire between the two must have broken 😞.  Now I get to take it apart again.

Larry

Where is the engineering done for these products . . . at the Asian factory, or by the Lionel staff stateside? Accordingly, who gets the “credit” for this one?

@OddIsHeRU posted:

Where is the engineering done for these products . . . at the Asian factory, or by the Lionel staff stateside? Accordingly, who gets the “credit” for this one?

For years I've called these the Lionel Puzzle Trucks, because they remind me of some warped mind inventing a puzzle just for fun!

Funny, I removed and reinstalled the front truck first and had less problems doing it than the rear one.  I must have spent a half hour or more with the rear one before I finally got it back together.

Larry

I had the same lovely experience with Lionel's first sd45t-2. It is particularly aggrevating to watch tinier HO engines being disassembled and repaired so much more easily. Glad you were able to get it done.

Terry

Add me to the club.  Just pulled my hair out all afternoon on the front truck of a RS-11.

Details to follow tomorrow.

*EDIT* Here's the details

Bob

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

For years I've called these the Lionel Puzzle Trucks, because they remind me of some warped mind inventing a puzzle just for fun!

Did I mention that I HATE puzzles....🤬🤬

I’ve never had to remove/repair a truck on a Lionel engine before. But after reading through this thread, I feel for those of you who’ve experienced this ordeal. What a hassle!

I had a Williams FA-1 some years back which was bulletproof, simple, and easy to work on. I greased the internal gears recommended about every 30 operating hours and appreciated how easy Williams trucks and motors were to remove, work on, and replace. Williams made it simple. Too bad Lionel’s aren’t the same way. The good ol’ days. 😔

@RSJB18 posted:

Did I mention that I HATE puzzles....🤬🤬

Especially puzzles that you had no intention of working on and didn't expect?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Especially puzzles that you had no intention of working on and didn't expect?

I think next time I'll try to solve the Rubik's Cube instead.....

As an aside....after reading through a lot of this, I feel the need (not for speed) to make a comment that I made to someone I know some time back: In general, and after literally decades (OK, 3) of experience taking some of this stuff apart, 3RO steam locomotives are generally much friendlier when it comes to disassembly than are the "house engines" (electric/diesel). I mean, even with the high-end steamers (or mostly with them, I think), things come apart more logically and less delicately. Really - plastic diesel body shells and wee tabs that clip them together - until you break one or two - should be discontinued on the basis of mental health. The diesel truck above is in a design that I have never seen and must have been from a designer who needs a hobby.

Ironic when you compare servicing real steamers and real diesels and electrics.