Do brass steam models ruin a man on die-cast versions?

Well, I have brass and diecast, but since I'm not an avid rivet counter, I'm keeping all of them.

Yep….you’ll get spoiled ,….you’ll begin to see that “scale” means something to your eye,….some of the biggest gripes are the thickness of the die-cast metal boiler shell’s cab walls, they’re the equivalent of Pershing tank armor in scale,….where as sheet brass, looks more prototypical, hence more room in the cab for more details,….then there’s the fact that brass locomotives have no choice but to have every detail added on separate instead of “ cast in detail” …..and then the final nail in the coffin is the diecast u shaped boiler, where as all but a very rare few brass have a wrap around boiler ( like it should be) ……if the bug bites you, it can be terminal,….you just can’t look at the diecast the same ever again,…..my next frontier as a builder is buying brass O scale boilers and adapting MTH Premier chassis under them,…best of both worlds, ruggedness of a diecast chassis, but the scale and detail of a brasser,…

below pictured: Willam’s brass masterpiece J3a fitted with a MTH Premier chassis

Pat

Brass also gets dents in the boiler, just like the real thing!

Yes, you'll be spoiled.

I love all my die cast steamers, but boy, all of the perks of brass are making me more tempted to pull the trigger on the new 90.  

No.  I'm interested in the locomotive, not the material it's made of.

Rusty

@Mikado 4501 posted:

I love all my die cast steamers, but boy, all of the perks of brass are making me more tempted to pull the trigger on the new 90.  

Let's hope the detailing in the locomotive justifies the lofty price.

I own both, brass is fun to run but a pain to convert where diecast is easily worked with. I would buy either when the price is right.

Here’s Lionel’s first brass hybrid.  AT&SF 3222.  I hope these photos help you make your decision.  I think they did a nice job on this one.

I don’t want to start an unfounded rumor, but I think DaveO of Lionel has said that the brass boilers on these will not be fully round because of the need to fit in electronics, smoke etc. In fact, no 3rd Rail steamer I have includes a fully round brass boiler because it has to fit over a chassis that is, however, rounded in a way that Lionel/MTH do not do. The chassis is die cast.

That said I’d expect the boiler necessarily to have a lot of separately applied detail because it can’t be cast in to brass!

As to whether you’ll be spoiled, yes - if you like looking at detail, but if like me you crave operating features, die cast from Lionel has more play value because of Legacy, which has more sound and other feature capability than TMCC.

If you buy a #90, pay attention to the boiler details while running it so you won't see the teeny tiny widely spaced drivers shown in all of Lionel's mock ups to date.  The running gear looks nothing like the real #90 (larger, closely-spaced drivers).  Check out their drawings and video that have been posted.

I have both brass and die cast each has its own plusses and minuses. F.W.I.W, Im not fussy for one medium to another as long as it looks scale and operates like a model should. If push comes to shove, I would side with Brass mainly because of the Zinc Rot threat.

For models in both construction mediums, I have the PRR  B6, K4, L2, H10, M1b, J1a, and the T1.

I have a Williams J11 N&W brass converted to PS3, it is a great runner, just not detailed as much as I like, I plan on darkening the shiny wheels and drivers

When their good their great but wait till you get one with a bunch of cold solder joints and pieces start falling off. Not much better than zinc rot.  At least you can break out the soldering irons and torches.  Then the airbrush.                                               j         

You're certainly right John, I've gotten a bunch of older brass for upgrades, and the first thing I have to do to some of them is attach the pieces that are loose or have already fallen off!

@JohnActon posted:

When their good their great but wait till you get one with a bunch of cold solder joints and pieces start falling off. Not much better than zinc rot.  At least you can break out the soldering irons and torches.  Then the airbrush.                                               j        

John, …you know we’re pals ( right?) ….but not much better than zinc rot?…zinc rot is end game?….no??….cold solder joints, although aggravating, is not what I’d call a “ shelfing offense” ……🤣🤣🤣🤣

Pat

Good points raised above...

Pat making his own hybrid using an MTH chassis and Wiliams brass superstructure is a novel idea. I have no such skills.

Ted's Lionel AT&SF hybrid looks much nicer than most of my die-cast steamers. How much did that sell for originally? Does anyone know how many brass-hybrids Lionel has made to date?

Bob's observation was similar to my own...to date Lionel's catalog depiction and other drawings just don't seem to capture No. 90's look, yet admittingly the drawings are probably not "as-built" and subject to change.

My only hands-on experience with brass are brass water towers and a brass Hiawatha some years ago. I managed to break off details of the Hiawatha upon wrangling it out of the box, nothing that couldn't be fixed, but the TMCC didn't function and I sent it back (e-bay purchase), and have made no purchases since.

BTW: on the other No. 90 thread I didn't mean to imply that model locomotive boilers need to be cylindrical all the way around in order to be acceptable; I understand openings are needed for drive shafts, wiring, and electronics. I was only trying to point out that the odd U-shaped shell that some Korean sub-contractor used in the early 2000s and Lionel continues to re-issue is just plain hideous; MTH found a way around that back in the 90s and Lionel has updated some of their die-cast steamers as well, so IMHO the U-shape design should die off. Which brings up the point made by Hancock regarding play value of Legacy over TMCC...though play value is subjective to some degree, I do understand wanting to have Legacy, even if the model is sub-par over its brass cousin.

I've had good luck finding older Williams/Samhongsa brass engines for great prices.  Enough detail to give them some character and I have found them suitable for altering into engines I would otherwise never see from the model makers today.  Here's a photo of my last USRA 2-8-2 painted in ACL livery:

I think I paid $170 for this engine, then probably spent that amount again on brass parts, paint, decals, etc to turn it into something close to what ACL owned.

I've found brass easier to manipulate than die-cast, modeling SAL and ACL it's something I've just had to learn to do.

As long as it is running on three rails, it is a toy.  You may want to have the most highly detailed toy but in the end it is a toy. Besides, the Plasticville buildings are a give-a-way.

For me, upgrading one, whether brass or diecast to ERR Cruise is always a benefit to get Legacy lite, I have also done PS3 upgrades but find it much easier to use the ERR units.

Paul, the first one:

ATSF 3160 Class Mikado #3222 6-84472 was offered at $1299.  This model was only available from Lionel direct and not from dealers, so there were no price breaks available.  (As far as I know, anyway)

IIRC, the N&W #611 was a brass hybrid, but I don’t know of any others.

I must admit that when it comes to steam locomotives, I have the brass bug.  I own a few die cast locomotives, but given a choice, I'll take the brass one.  Just my personal preference.  I like the detail that comes with brass on the scale of the rivets and other details.

Let's not forget the Brass VL GS1. I am ordering a Brass 2-10-0. I have a collection of SRR HO Overland Brass. I like the extra details. Yes my regret is getting into O Scale in 2017 and missing the Brass Mikado.

@SouthernFan56 posted:

Let's not forget the Brass VL GS1.

Except, that is a brass boiler on a die cast frame & running gear. I believe Lionel refers to it as a "Hybrid"?

I am ordering a Brass 2-10-0. I have a collection of SRR HO Overland Brass. I like the extra details. Yes my regret is getting into O Scale in 2017 and missing the Brass Mikado.

Not at all. I have some brass pieces (2-rail and 3-rail), die cast, and plastic (2-rail, 3-rail, and a coupler of transition cars). What matters to me is detailing and operation.

Brass will make you appreciate your diecast. Yes it looks good, 3rd Rail is probably the only one today that has better detail but none are more durable or can match the pulling power of a comparable diecast engine. Some may be close but am not aware of any that are better. It has its place. Get one or a few but don’t sell your diecast.

Pete

@TedW posted:

Paul, the first one:

ATSF 3160 Class Mikado #3222 6-84472 was offered at $1299.  This model was only available from Lionel direct and not from dealers, so there were no price breaks available.  (As far as I know, anyway)

IIRC, the N&W #611 was a brass hybrid, but I don’t know of any others.

Ted, $1,299 seems like a reasonable price. I read it was offered in 2017. It seems No. 90, is being offered at a whopping price increase.

JP Morgan once said, "If you have to ask you can't afford it." I think he was referring to guys like me

Wow, this is a great thread, Great Question, lots of good thoughts. My opinion is that when one receives this Steamer, it will be a masterpiece worthy of being displayed on ones living room or dens mantle. Also, it will be a very feature rich Legacy locomotive that will be a crowd pleaser, and a lot of fun to run. There are many nice diecast steamers on the market today that are very realistic, however, if you are moving toward the scale side of the hobby, brass detailing is the real eye Candy. Lionel will deliver you a beautiful steamer worthy of the price. Happy Railroading Everyone

@Paul Kallus posted:

Ted, $1,299 seems like a reasonable price. I read it was offered in 2017. It seems No. 90, is being offered at a whopping price increase.

JP Morgan once said, "If you have to ask you can't afford it." I think he was referring to guys like me

I believe the 2-10-0 requires a new to Lionel chassis. The Hybrid Mikado used the old K-Line tooling for the chassis. You can buy K-Line scale Mikados for under 400 bucks all day long.

Pete

Pete is right, the Lionel legacy Sante Fe #3222 brass hybrid did use the K-line chassis, but it’s a super beautiful locomotive and it was $1150 to $1200 if you purchased it at York. My friend that I rode with talked me into buying this first time hybrid, Dave and Ryan sold me. I’m glad I have it, it’s a beauty. This #90 will be very nice, worthy of the pricing.

Fantastic layout shots, Larry. I have the OGR DVD and seeing your pictures makes me want to watch it again.

@Norton posted:

I believe the 2-10-0 requires a new to Lionel chassis. The Hybrid Mikado used the old K-Line tooling for the chassis. You can buy K-Line scale Mikados for under 400 bucks all day long.

I hope they ditched the problematic gearbox for the #90!

Thank you very much Paul, I appreciate your comments and hope you choose to go for one of the new #90 brass hybrid Steam locomotives. I’m sure it will be very nice. I’m getting one of the 2-8-0 consolidations from Mr. Muffins in the L&N paint scheme. Happy Railroading Everyone

All good points made in this thread. I certainly got caught up in the excitement of Lionel's announcement of Strasburg No. 90 in the 2021 Vol. II catalog. I am lucky enough to live about an hour away from Strasburg and being a steam man this was big news.

Coming back to earth, and after looking over my assortment of diecast steam engines spread around my basement, I am content with what I have. I'll venture a guess that some operators and collectors of die-cast scale steamers don't know or don't care what a prototypical steam engine - mainly the underside of the boiler - is shaped like. It was only through in-person visits to Strasburg and other live-steamer railroads, as well as studying pictures in Alvin Staufer, Bert Pennypacker, Don Ball Jr, and other excellent resource books that I came to understand and appreciate what a real steam engine looks like.

The steam locomotive was and still is a remarkable piece of mechanical engineering. For our alleged scale 3-rail trains, there is a gray area of where a scale model transitions to a toy; and, with added techno-features and latest sound systems we make compensations on what we'd might otherwise accept. Frankly, I really don't care what people call them...but for the price of scale die-cast steamers they should be as accurate as possible IMO. And, for the price of the brass-hybrid No. 90, which is a 46% increase over the 2017 brass-hybrid Mikado, the model should be completely accurate. I passed on pre-ordering it...high price point and limited application on my pike were the determining factors. Meanwhile, I will continue to admire well-done steam engine models both in brass and die-cast

Although I own both diecast and brass steam, I definitely prefer brass. For me, all of the "small" and add on details attract my eye.

Brass has ruined me, I'm extra picky now.

The nice thing about brass is you can solder detail parts on or back together. If you have the right tools you can fix anything on a brass model.

If you solder detail parts back on, you are likely to have to do some painting as well.  That's where I get lost, trying to match the old paint is difficult to impossible.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you solder detail parts back on, you are likely to have to do some painting as well.  That's where I get lost, trying to match the old paint is difficult to impossible.

I see that as a great opportunity for weathering.

I have both Brass and Die Cast steam engines and really like them both.  The only issue I have with brass is they are extremely delicate.  I have learned to pick them up by the steam cylinders and the back of the cab to avoid breaking or bending something.   I absolutely love my Williams Dreyfuss for its detailing.  It is a great runner but conventional only.  I agree that the late Williams brass mikados are great engines.  More details than the early ones and easy to upgrade to ERR command control.

By far most of my steam is die cast but brass continues to tug at me.  If only I could find a Suntet SP MT-4 or MT-5 for 3 rail I would jump on it in a minute!

Rolland