Double main over-under layout (update 09/13/21)

Very nice benchwork!

Keith, yes it was snowing here this morning, but looks like it quit. 

As I saw on another topic, the benchwork looks absolutely great!! 

Would you tell me what the gaps in the outer layer of Woodland Scenics inclines are for in the third and fourth 2020 photographs? 

Also, what is the board you have placed on top of the Woodland Scenics? 

Do you plan to screw track directly to it or install another type roadbed?

Also, is that GarGraves track I see stacked up?

Neat plan!  What are the overall dimensions?

Sorry for so many questions, but I guess you can tell I am definitely interested.   

Yeah, this looks great and inspirational.  I'll tack on to Mark's questions.  I'd like to know the dimensions of your layout and the curve radii.

Mark

Thanks for your interest.

Bench-work is Model Railroad Benchwork

Like horses on a racetrack or cars on the freeway, the ones on the outside of a curve have a longer distance to travel. My inclines and risers are WS two wide. It's not an issue with the risers, but the inner and outer inclines need to rise at the same rate. I tried stretching the outer inclines, but that was only practical for the starter (thinnest incline). Hence the gaps.

On top of the inclines is 1/4" (.210) plywood. I did this to have something to screw the track to and provide a flexible sub-roadbed for the transition from incline to flat. I set back the start and end of inclines to provide the transition sections. I'm trying WS foam putty to build up the transition sections.

I have rolls of black foam O gauge roadbed that will go over the plywood. I bought it on eBay.

The track is Atlas O. I bought a bunch of flex track, but then learned from the forum how difficult it is to work with. I reworked the Y in my plan until I managed to build it entirely with sectional track.

The layout is 18' long by 8' wide with an additional 30" to the width at the east end.

I'm also OCD  I think it's obvious from how I'm building my layout. Also, as a product development engineer for 30 years, I was expected to have a plan that would work from the drawing board, not from tweaking it in the lab. Minor adjustments allowed, but not major ones.

All curves are O-72, O-81 and O-90. There's a mainline crossover using #7.5 turnouts. The Y forced me into one O-72 turnout with the curved section on the mainline. I didn't want that, but since I had to abandon using flex track, I had no choice. All other turnouts are #5.

Excellent.  Thanks, Keith.  I have a space that can accommodate a similar layout so I will follow this with great interest.  Nice work.

A little more detail on the incline transitions. My grades rise 3/4" in 24". The elevation change is 6". The last section of the incline is 4"+ 1/2" + 3/4" risers stacked plus a 3% WS starter. That brings me to 6". But, I cut off the last 8" of the starter and moved it ahead 8" to create a transition. So, now I have a 16" section that needs to rise 1/4". This is half of the 3% grade.

@Oman posted:

Mark

Thanks for your interest.

Bench-work is Model Railroad Benchwork  They do such a nice job on the curves, not to mention the rest of the benchwork.

Like horses on a racetrack or cars on the freeway, the ones on the outside of a curve have a longer distance to travel. My inclines and risers are WS two wide. It's not an issue with the risers, but the inner and outer inclines need to rise at the same rate. I tried stretching the outer inclines, but that was only practical for the starter (thinnest incline). Hence the gaps.   Duhh!  I should have figured that one out myself!!  Makes perfect sense.

On top of the inclines is 1/4" (.210) plywood. I did this to have something to screw the track to and provide a flexible sub-roadbed for the transition from incline to flat. I set back the start and end of inclines to provide the transition sections. I'm trying WS foam putty to build up the transition sections.  Sounds great for attaching the track and transitions.

I have rolls of black foam O gauge roadbed that will go over the plywood. I bought it on eBay.  I have never tried foam.  Once I use up my stock of cork, I may give foam a try.

The track is Atlas O. I bought a bunch of flex track, but then learned from the forum how difficult it is to work with. I reworked the Y in my plan until I managed to build it entirely with sectional track.  Atlas track looks great!  When I started buying track, there was a shortage on Atlas track, so being fairly new to O gauge (after 40 years in smaller scales) I was afraid I would have trouble getting what I needed, so I went with GarGraves and Ross switches.  Yes, GarGraves flex is so stiff too.  I am using sectional.

The layout is 18' long by 8' wide with an additional 30" to the width at the east end.  That will make for a nice long run.  

I'm also OCD  I think it's obvious from how I'm building my layout. Also, as a product development engineer for 30 years, I was expected to have a plan that would work from the drawing board, not from tweaking it in the lab. Minor adjustments allowed, but not major ones.

Keith, Thank you for all the answers and the curve diameters in the second post.  I'll interject my comments above in red.

@Oman posted:

A little more detail on the incline transitions. My grades rise 3/4" in 24". The elevation change is 6". The last section of the incline is 4"+ 1/2" + 3/4" risers stacked plus a 3% WS starter. That brings me to 6". But, I cut off the last 8" of the starter and moved it ahead 8" to create a transition. So, now I have a 16" section that needs to rise 1/4". This is half of the 3% grade.

Excellent idea!!  I would have liked to transition to my 4% grade more, but in an 11x11 room, I just didn't have the space to do it.  The longer route that is 3% has a longer transition at the bottom end and I will at the top too.

For me, Ross is a very close second. I prefer solid NS rail, but Ross has a super selection of track and everyone raves about the quality. If I had to start over and couldn't find Atlas track, I'd use Ross.

Nice plan and progress Keith. Nice action too. It was just snowing here too. 

Andy

Started laying roadbed today.  I'm running out of construction supplies. Many on-line stores are behind on orders. Not wanting to wait, I've placed the same order at 2 stores with the hope that one of them isn't too far behind.

The foam roadbed looks great!

Started final incline on the east end. Laid some track.

Hey Keith, I really like your setup,good luck and enjoy

Keith, It looks great!  Are the slits in the foam roadbed there to get it to curve around the bend?

Nice work

I wish I was that good of a craftsman!  Nice work!

-Greg

@Mark Boyce posted:

Keith, It looks great!  Are the slits in the foam roadbed there to get it to curve around the bend?

Yes; exactly. The cuts are random and sloppy. I'm usually meticulous, but I realize that I'll never get this done if I don't lower my standards. And in this case, I'm okay with it. OCD 

@Greg Houser posted:

I wish I was that good of a craftsman!  Nice work!

-Greg

Greg

You're giving me too much credit. The bench-work was a kit and Woodland Scenics foam terrain product does the rest. I'm just doing what I did as a Child; playing with building blocks. I may have learned from LEGO in 1962.

Keith, I’m a bit OCD.  As teenagers, my brother called me a Neat-nik.  Over the years of marriage and kids, I have had to bend a lot.  LOL. I agree, At 63, if I was to do things as neat as I want, I would not get the trains running, buildings built, and scenery developed.

I haven't posted in awhile; in part because, even though I'm making progress, it doesn't look like much and in part because I was laid up with a recurring knee problem.

Smoothing out the transitions on the inclines is time consuming. 2 out of 4 done at this end.

Keep up the good work and take care of your knee.... Following the thread...

You are making the transitions very well, I see.  I'm struggling with the very top getting a smooth transition to level.  Take care of the knee.  I'm still getting up to speed after a knee replacement last November.

 This is going to be a beautiful layout'... Do you have enough clearance on your lower loop curves?.. It looks a little close from the pics.  I always worry about obtaining a wider load car in the future... Don't ask me why I worry about this???   Beautiful workmanship'... Best with the knee'...👍🏻😉👌  

Mark

My knee is Bursitis. My ailment can't compare to what you went through. 

One thing that cannot be explained enough is transition on inclines. Initially, I just calculated the grade. Later, I realized that one needs to allow extra length for transition. My grades are 3%; at both ends I allowed 8"(length) at each end for a transition. I'm sure mine are adequate, but I don't know what the minimum is.

I know you're layout is space constrained (like most), so you may need to increase the grade in order to smooth the transition.

@Quarter Gauger 48 posted:

 This is going to be a beautiful layout'... Do you have enough clearance on your lower loop curves?.. It looks a little close from the pics.  I always worry about obtaining a wider load car in the future... Don't ask me why I worry about this???   Beautiful workmanship'... Best with the knee'...👍🏻😉👌  

Thanks Ted

Your vision is correct.

I lost 1/4" due to double wide woodland scenic risers and inclines. Now my track is basically 4" on center. Not track to track, but to the risers. Anyway, my railroad won't see anything bigger than a mountain steamer, My layout is transition era Canada. Canada never had the behemoths the US had.

The outer loop has 2" clearance from center rail to the adjacent riser.

Great build thread and discussion!  Kudos and thanks!  Interesting track plan, much to like there.    -Ken Hoganson

P.S. can you post a 2D view please, there is one connection I am not sure about in the 3D view.

@Ken-Oscale posted:

Great build thread and discussion!  Kudos and thanks!  Interesting track plan, much to like there.    -Ken Hoganson

P.S. can you post a 2D view please, there is one connection I am not sure about in the 3D view.

Thanks Ken

@Oman posted:

Thanks Ken

Thanks Oman.  If you curve the yard to the right by flipping the two turnouts to be right-hand to left-hand, you might then clear the turntable with the yard tracks running on the right of it, allowing longer yard tracks.  

@Ken-Oscale posted:

Thanks Oman.  If you curve the yard to the right by flipping the two turnouts to be right-hand to left-hand, you might then clear the turntable with the yard tracks running on the right of it, allowing longer yard tracks.  

Thanks for the suggestion. That was my original intent, but changing the yard to be left to right would put the yard entry turnout on an incline.

@Oman posted:

Thanks for the suggestion. That was my original intent, but changing the yard to be left to right would put the yard entry turnout on an incline.

Hmm, I am not seeing it, the yard looks to be elevated over the tracks below, not an incline.

@Oman posted:

Mark

My knee is Bursitis. My ailment can't compare to what you went through. 

One thing that cannot be explained enough is transition on inclines. Initially, I just calculated the grade. Later, I realized that one needs to allow extra length for transition. My grades are 3%; at both ends I allowed 8"(length) at each end for a transition. I'm sure mine are adequate, but I don't know what the minimum is.

I know you're layout is space constrained (like most), so you may need to increase the grade in order to smooth the transition.

Keith, I've had bursitis in shoulder.  No fun there either.

Yes, my whole grade is about 14 feet.  I increased to 4% and transitioned well at the bottom, but not enough at the top.  The other grade is a little longer.  I'm using 3% there and have only built out the bottom, which I transitioned well again.  Hopefully I learn something and the top of that one will be done correctly!    Thank you for your input!!

@Ken-Oscale posted:

Hmm, I am not seeing it, the yard looks to be elevated over the tracks below, not an incline.

Ken

The mainline is transitioning from an incline to a 6" elevation where the arrow is. That is where the turnout would go if flipping the yard over. You are correct; the yard is elevated; 6".

@Mark Boyce posted:

Keith, I've had bursitis in shoulder.  No fun there either.

Yes, my whole grade is about 14 feet.  I increased to 4% and transitioned well at the bottom, but not enough at the top.  The other grade is a little longer.  I'm using 3% there and have only built out the bottom, which I transitioned well again.  Hopefully I learn something and the top of that one will be done correctly!    Thank you for your input!!

I'm finding the transition to rise is easier than transition to level. IOW, the lower transition is easier than the upper transition. I used a couple of pints of Woodland Scenic foam putty to smooth one upper transition. I'm working on the second one now.

@Oman posted:

I'm finding the transition to rise is easier than transition to level. IOW, the lower transition is easier than the upper transition. I used a couple of pints of Woodland Scenic foam putty to smooth one upper transition. I'm working on the second one now.

Ah, so we are both having trouble with the same, the top to level.  Interesting.

@Oman posted:

Ken

The mainline is transitioning from an incline to a 6" elevation where the arrow is. That is where the turnout would go if flipping the yard over. You are correct; the yard is elevated; 6".

I think we are talking about different things, I am not proposing the yard throat at the other end where you are pointing, but only to bring the yard out more to the right (from the yard throat), to expose more of the track beneath, and point out into the currently open space, and have longer yard spurs.  

@Oman posted:

I'm finding the transition to rise is easier than transition to level. IOW, the lower transition is easier than the upper transition. I used a couple of pints of Woodland Scenic foam putty to smooth one upper transition. I'm working on the second one now.

Glad to hear you talking about vertical easements.  With 4% grades, I try to work in 2' of 2% at each end as vertical easements.

Each 2' of 2% easements accounts for about 1/2" of vertical change.  To get to 6", that leaves 5" more of vertical height to attain.  To get 5" of vertical change at 4% needs about 10' of run.  So 14' total to rise 6".  If it was all 4%, you would only need about 12' of run to reach 6" of vertical change.

Okay, something like this.