Double mainline layout question

Dear Larry:

I think you should absolutely stick to your reversing loop idea.  It is always better to have the capability to turn the trains around without physically having to touch them.  You have a good deal of space to work with--and you could maximize your space by "stacking" your reverse loops, on both "ends" of your mainline on top of one another because reversing loops are space hogs.

I would very respectfully suggest to you to really research, look at other designs for inspiration, think, and come up with something more than just a donut shaped layout; unless your intention is merely to run a display train outfit with minimal control.  You could design something far more interesting to watch and operate.

You really and truly have an excellent area! that you could design a double-line linear run that more closely simulates the operation of the real world vs. just continuously circling in the same direction; and still do it in such a manner that two trains could operate with a minimal amount of intervention.

Lastly, Fasttrack is a great product!; especially for on the floor operation.  However, It is expensive.  Have you considered a more realistic looking track like the Gargraves Phantom line?  A huge number of people seem to favor the Gargraves track combined with Ross Switches. 

It will be interesting to see what you come up with.  Thanks for posting your photos. 

John

Larry love your existing layout looking to do one very similar .. what curves are you using on the existing layout??

John C. - Thanks for the suggestions!  As you mentioned, I am also considering the GG / Ross options.  I'll continue to work on the reverse loop idea.

Erie - The mainline curves are all 0-60.  The inner loop spur is 0-48.  Most switches are O-72 but a couple are O-60.  I'm attaching the AnyRail plan.

Personally, I think you need to start with the dual mains first to see just what it is you'd be trying to accomplish. I once thought I wanted dual mains too, but as I got further into the design process, I realized I really just wanted some sections where trains could pass each other going in opposite directions, something we see often between Tucson/El Paso and Flagstaff/Amarillo. I then found I also wanted some sections where trains crossed each other over/under, something else we see often. I ended up raising the inside main 6" and changing the configuration of both levels so they crossed each other in a few places.

And like John suggested, you'll see that I piled reversing loops on top of each other on one end. I don't have as much room as you do, so I haven't been able to work in any sections where trains pass each other on the bottom (blue) level. I'm far from finished, but I'm hoping there is enough room on the top (purple) level to run 2 short trains so they'll pass each other at times in the middle/lower sections.

I'm only using DCS, so that makes things easier for what I want to do and I'm only offering my plan to illustrate my points. That said, try to envision this on one level without the reversing loops or spurs and with a dual crossover in place of the green incline. That's where this started as a single level dual main. I ran a simulation in RR-Track and was simply not satisfied. I'm still not happy with this, but it's a work in progress and much more interesting than just the dual main design.

I think the first design with the reversing loops is better operationally. Under command control, multi-train operation is easily done.

Going with the dual mainline, you lose operating capability, especially with a 6" mainline spacing that FasTrack provides. This can be mitigated somewhat using Ross O-80/O-88 curves (keep the big boys on the outside main) but it still presents operational restrictions. Dave's use of elevated reverse loops could also be adapted to add industries..

Larry - here is my layout with 2 reversing loops with #5 turnouts used at the crossovers.

Paul

Nice layout Paul. May I ask what track you used? I assume it's Atlas because of the #5 turnouts. If so, I'd like to see how something like that would fit in my space using O54/O45. My design uses ScaleTrax O54/O31 and I'm not happy with the O31, but there is nothing in between. In my case, that's another negative for ScaleTrax and positive for Atlas.

Larry:

I was looking at the drawing of your exiting layout again.  I started counting the squares as one-foot squares and noticed that assuming these squares are one-foot squares your layout is larger than the 22' or 23' you described in your post.  I'm curious to know the exact dimensions of your layout space and is there at least thirty inches of space around where the layout would be or is any side(s) of the layout against a wall?  I'd be glad to share a couple of ideas if I know the exact dimensions.

Also, I'm assuming you are more concerned with a main-line operational display vs. a yard or a branch line layout, correct?  Last, do you have a favorite railroad or area that you model? 

John C.,

Good observation!  You are correct on the dimensions. What is not depicted in the diagram is the external basement wall along the back side.  Where the pale blue area (table) begins to angle away from the wall there are obstacles that prevent me from placing the table along that section of the wall.  On the left side is the electric fuse box that I need access to.  On the right is a vertical drain pipe.  I can, however, angle away from the wall as I do in the exiting diagram.  

I am attaching a picture that outlines the work area.  I would like to avoid the pink area, if possible, but I could encroach if needed.  The blue area is fair game.

I would like an operational double mainline with enough spurs / sidings to hold a couple of trains, if possible.  The reverse loop(s) would be very nice.  I don't particularly desire an over/under unless it's the only way to get the operational mainline.

I am not modeling a particular railroad and I'm open to anything in that regard.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Looking forward to seeing what the good folks on here come up with for ya since I'm looking for nearly the same layout!

Folded dogbone layout with double reversing loops and elevated track. This would be a good starting point for an expanded layout.

Thanks, Paul, I thought those might be the curve sizes and I figured the colors were the power blocks.

Everything in a dual mainline system will eventually depend on two primary factors.

1) Are the lines to be parallel or will they diverge at some point either laterally or vertically?

2) Will either or both main lines be complete loops or have return/reversing loops?

Sooner or later a dual main line layout must address each question?

Larry:

Are the white areas in your photo solid walls?  I think I understand what you are saying on the drawing but want to be clear about the white areas.  You will need access to the track to install, repair, clean, etc.  You can't have areas on your layout over 5 feet wide unless you can access this spot from both sides.  30 inches is about the maximum any person can reach and believe me it's not easy to reach out 30 inches to work on something.  Believe me I know.  I'm tall with long arms.  I'm going to figure out something for your area.  I would like to be able to use the 8' x 5' pink area possibly for a reversing loop area (maybe a "hidden" reverse area) or a helix for a second level.  There are many possibilities.  I want to ensure where walls are so that I may plan for walking aisles or access areas.

Are the white areas walls? 

I have four "loops" stacked in one corner of my basement where I have made the most efficient use of my space via placing all these space hogs in one spot. PHOTO ATTACHED. To go one better, each loop is either larger or small, in order, than the one above/below it so that installing the track or cleaning it was/is super easy.

Larry, I built mine with the broadest curves and most gentle grades possible so scale lengthnequipment will look their best. I used Gargaves track and Ross switches. I do plan to add two reverse loops. Here are some pictues of it.

John C. - I updated the work area picture to include the relevant area of the basement with obstructions.  The fuse box is in the upper left (grey); the vertical drain pipe is upper right (grey), the stairs / wall (grey) runs along the bottom; and the green is a storage area / closet that I need access to.  

If you look at my existing layout picture you will get a feel for my "simplistic" view of the world.  My goals are to 1) introduce a dual main and 2) enlarge the curves to 072+ for larger engines in the future, 3) some sidings, and 4) reverse loop(s) if possible.  I am not, however, "locked in" to the existing layout at all. I am open to completely new designs but I am also content with simple layouts too.  Thanks again for ideas and suggestions!

Dave, Paul, ProHobby, John M. - Thanks for the pics.  Matt - thanks for the tips.

ScrapIron - Mains can diverge.  I like complte loops that incorporate reverse sections.

Thank you Larry.  This gives me a clear understanding of what you have.  I've got several good ideas....I need to get some drawings done. 

I am all for double mains, and each main with its own double reversing loops. I used this scheme on two of my HO layouts (many years ago) and used it again on my present O-Gauge layout. I had more room this time, even if for O-Gauge, so I was able to make the reversing loops less noticeable.

This is how the concept develops and creates the 'pinched' sections where the turnouts for the reversing loops can be added.

The overall layout (all levels shown). BTW, besides the hatches shown, Lake Chiemsee and the turntable also are hatches.

Just the lower level showing the reversing loop turnouts for the 'yellow' track under Hidden Pass Mountain.

Just the upper level showing the reversing loop turnouts for the 'brown' track, and several main to main crossovers also under Hidden Pass Mountain.

Reversing turnouts in detail.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing.

Alex

I plan to only have two, single-track reverse loops.  That will not be a problem for my double-track mainline because I plan to also install a Ross double crossover.

John M. - Do you have a diagram of your layout?

A different set up but perhaps some things to consider....

After dismantling a couple of fairly large operations at two separate locations in '08 and '09 I was limited to a 9x16 around the wall in a Condo attic space using recycled Gargraves Flextrack and Ross/Curtis turnouts. I wanted a dual mainline with crossovers for running and the wide curve arcs of 072/084 and 084/096 that the space enabled. But of course the reverse loops that I was used to having in the past were not even a consideration with a small round-the-room design. 

I will be 82 in a few weeks and have very limited mobility due to health issues. For this reason I aimed at very basic simplicity in track plan and controls. You know, the same old concept: "druthers".

I recycled a Jim Barrett designed piano-hinged "Drop Section" to avoid a duckunder entry and I retired all the ASC and similar modules and indicator lights in favor of direct manual control. It enables switch position ID using Tortoise switch motors via toggles mounted on a pin stripe track schematic. I can run Command or Conventional from the hand-held remote and know any of 17 switch positions at a glance.

Due to health problems I have run trains very little since 2010 but I did learn early on that reversing trains periodically via the 0-5-0 was not the operationally undignified practice I thought it to be--in particular on a small layout. A second thing is that even a modestly large sized layout is difficult to maintain as one ages. And, as already mentioned, keeping it as simple as possible regarding construction and controls promotes more fun.

Larry,

My PRR Panhandle is a folded dogbone (18.5' x 10' roughly).  It is based on a John Armstrong design.  My largest curves are O54.  I didn't think I had room for reversing loops (and I don't), but I incorporated a double cross-over into the design.  I typically run trains in the counter-clockwise direction, but there are occassions when I need to turn a switcher.  See what you think.

Tracks are color-coded to show power districts.  Tan track 3.5 units from top right border leads to a lower level storage yard on the opposite side of the layout.

George

Alex, I used a similar technique, but didn't fold them, something I'll try since I'm still in the design phase. However, is that really a dual main? I though "dual main" meant 2 mainlines close together following each other around the layout on the same level. I gave up on that because my space is too small and I wanted the multiple levels more.

George, I'm still playing with the double-crossover reversing loops. I'd prefer tighter loops on the ends of the run, but like you, I don't really have the room and I like the dual main section. I also like the operational flow of one train maybe having to wait for another before using the crossover. I'm using O54/O31 curves now, but maybe by going back to my original design with the double-crossover would let me use O54/O45 curves instead. If I go with that and Alex's idea, maybe I can use just O54 curves.

Larry:

I do...but as I searched for it on my CADRAIL program, it is gone.  I have no idea what happened.  I'll have to search my computer files for a copy.  I did post an older version on Facebook long ago...fortunately.  This may be hard to understand but basically the main-line goes completely around my basement.  It starts at Monaco--36 inches off the floor and rises to 60 inches at the very tope multi-colored reversing loop.  I decided against adding so many holding sidings on the top level because of multiple issues. 

However, the main-line is accurate.  It is 231 long non-repeating linear and takes a train about 3 minutes to cover the main-line one-way.  There are hundreds of pictures on my facebook page over these past 2.5 years. 

https://www.facebook.com/john.coy.566

  I frequently update the layout progress on my Facebook page as many "friends" are interested and many have visited.  I hope that this layout is mostly semi-complete by December of 2017.

Here are some random photos...my wife Connie is an awesome backdrop painter! 

Dave,

Yes, it is a dual main all the way around; about 275 feet total (each track) , or 2-1/2 scale miles. I usually run the trains about 20 SMPH (freight) and 30 SMPH (passenger), and it takes about six minutes on average to make one trip. What may be confusing is the yard-lead and yard on the lower level, which starts from the outer main just to the right of Hidden Pass Mountain.

The double reversing loops and several crossover between the mains provide a lot of operational options - never get bored!

Thx.

Alex

Sorry, Alex, I didn't see that light line until I zoomed in after your reply, tired old eyes. I'd almost move back to the Midwest to get a basement for a layout like that, but then I'd have to build it and maintain it and that would cut into our travel time.

Larry,

Here's a pretty accurate diagram.  I haven't added the turntable/roundhouse yet.  It also doesn't show the reverse loops.  One reverse loop will go from the passing siding in the bottom left under the turntable to connect with the straight at the top right.  The second one will go from the passing siding on the middle far left and connect to the bottom track just left of the bridge.

The double crossover is shown at the top right.

Larry:

I haven't forgotten you.  It's been very busy with holiday things going on with family and friends.  I'm working on a plan.  I'll show you something by next week.

John C. - Thanks!  I appreciate the ideas.

Dear Larry:

Here is a rough drawing of a track plan.  I’m sorry that I can’t explain this in person because it may be difficult for you to follow.

This layout does not have a double-line.  However, it functions as a double-line because there are two distinct areas of track, i.e. a mountain division and a valley division.

In reality this layout is two different track plans sharing a common yard.  There is an upper and lower level.  It features: bridges, tunnels, 2 4-way turnouts and a turntable!

I called this Railroad: “The MV Line.”  The “M” is mountain division (upper level) and the “V” is valley which is the lower level.

I do not know what your skill level is in regard to bench-work, carpentry, etc., because this is a fairly complex layout that would require a fair amount of skill to pull it off.  It would require cutting track to fit sections together and I would highly recommend Gargraves Flex Track and buying, if you already don’t have one, a dremmel tool with a two inch cutting wheel because it cuts Gargraves track perfectly.  

I absolutely avoid “duckunders” like the plague--those are areas on layouts where you have to crawl on your hands and knees.  I have incorporated a “NOD-under” on this layout.  This NOD-under is 60” off the floor at its lowest point and would only be the width of one track.  You may see it on the drawing in the aisle ways which are drawn in BLUE.   It would be easy for almost anyone to lower their head and step through.  I didn’t like doing it, however given your space and desires that’s a compromise I choose to make.

The upper level has as its minimum diameter a 72 curvature; meaning anything in “O” scale will work—even if hanging over these curves a bit.  The lower level has tight 36 diameter curves but the majority of equipment in “O” will make these 36 curves.  I always use the biggest curve possible and on this design elected to use the 36 curves on the lower level to make the run for the train much more interesting for train operator(s) and viewers alike.  There are numerous twists and turns on this layout including an eye-popping tier climb up a mountain! 

The lower level is drawn in BROWN.  As you can see it departs from the yard, twists and turns and ends up in a “circle” which you can “hold” the train there as long as you wish, until it finally returns to the yard.  The upper level does the exact same thing.

This layout would be described as an “out and back.”  The specialty about this particular design is that this layout in fact is two (2) out and backs layouts incorporated into one layout.  It is made very interesting by the twists, turns, climbs and descents. 

There is a lot going on and with the yard and turntable the operating possibilities are endless.  In addition, I did include on the upper level a connection to the “outside” world…in the upper right hand section of the drawing. 

This is John Armstrong’s “To be continued.”  You may or may not be familiar with what I’m referring to.

There would also be double-sided back drop dividers in a few places to make the run look far longer than it actually is.  I didn’t include many details because this drawing is challenging enough without a face-to-face lengthy explanation.

Hey, at least this is free.  Some people charge a fortune for even simple designs.

NOTES:

The upper level is RED COLOR  “DASH DOT DASH”

The lower Level is BROWN in color

The climb/descent is in a solid RED line.

The BLUE Color is aisleway and NOD-under.  

The BLACK is the given perimeter of layout space.  I even left room for you at the closet.

Lastly, if you decided to build this, I would like to see a constant stream of construction photographs. 

This is one heck of a project, but would deliver years of enjoyment with a WOW factor!

Let me know if you like it or hate it.  I’m curious and won’t be offended either way.  I really believe this layout is LOADED with interesting operating and scenic possibilities.

I’m sorry if this is too complex for your current skills.  If you could manage this, and it would be quite a challenge, you would have one awesome layout!

John

John, Wow, you missed your calling.  It does appear to be a challenging project.  I'll have to think about that one for a while.  It looks very interesting though.  Not sure if my skills are up to it but I'll mull it over.  Regardless, I really appreciate your ideas!  It's people like yourself that make this forum so great.

Larry:

Thank you for the compliment.  I really appreciate it.  I've "studied" this design topic for years and its always been an interest of mine.  My pet peeve is the GREAT MODEL RAILROADS magazine as I look at many of these "great" layouts and see basic layout designs with numerous ways they could have been improved.

Ironically, Kalmbach also produces MODEL RAILROAD PLANNING (I have every issue which I've read from cover to cover many times) with absolutely sensational advice and instruction from highly experienced modelers.  Then just about every piece of this great advice is ignored in many of the GREAT MODEL RAILROADS magazine layouts; especially the duck-unders.  I swear one "great" layout had three duck-under areas.  My back began to hurt just looking at the layout.  

Lastly, if you decide to proceed please contact me and I will be glad to share details such as where double-sided backdrop dividers would need to be, gradient, curvature, etc.  You need a good jigsaw, and track cutting tool.  You'd be an expert cutting Gargraves track when the track here is done.  Don't be intimidated.  You can do with patience, practice and time.

Thanks again.