Early MTH Tinplate

I believe Mike bought the standard gauge tooling from Jerry Williams and started making his own tinplate reproductions in the early 80's.  In the late 80's Mike entered into a contract with Lionel to manufacture the Lionel Classics line of tinplate reproductions. 

Jeff Davis

Yes, I was aware that he had Williams tooling, but not sure he would have thought it was ok to use the Name without an agreement So, Maybe it was made in the 80's before the falling out with Lionel?

JoeG

There were definitely some early MTH Standard Gauge items with Lionel badges. They show up pretty often on eBay and I'm pretty sure that most of the early MTH you see with Lionel plates came out of the factory that way. However, it's hard to know exactly what is what at this late date because it's so easy to swap out MTH plates for Lionel. I've done it myself. This production would have been done when Mike Wolf was still a major Lionel distributor, so I think it is safe to assume that he had Lionel's permission to do it. 

As Jeff said, Mike built the Lionel Classics under contract in the late 80's and early 90's. The Lionel Classics line included both 0 gauge and Standard Gauge, as well as some buildings. 

Joe,

I honestly feel that there was no, "falling out with Lionel". IMHO It was a disagreement on what the other said. When a person or corporation has the signature of another on a contract. They will do everything in their power to change that contract. We will never know what happened behind closed doors. One thing we do know....who the apparent winner was.

As Jeff & Hiawatha stated there are many mis-branded items. As a now retired collector of prewar Lionel I have seen many. So many of the early Williams item have shown up for sale as originals. Quite a few were purchased early on by a few uninformed collectors. I feel no sympathy in this. Are those few collectors guilty or innocent of trying pass on their misfortune?

Pappy,

I agree. Now that you bring up Williams, where does one find Williams tinplate. I have never seen any at shows or on the internet. I would not mind having a few pieces.

JoeG

You might should ask Hiawatha. In the past you could find quite a bite at TCA Shows. Until the sellers were asked to remove the item or post a sign that it is a reproduction. I seen TCA give these people warnings. You need to investigate and shop wisely. These days you will find very little if any original Williams branded items. I stopped attending shows some time ago after my PD became worse.

When looking for Williams tinplate loco's, always check to see if it has a operating motor. Many were sold with dummy motors for display, or to be upgraded by the buyer with an original Lionel motor.

Steve

This car came in a brown cardboard box with Tinplate #214 stamped in black on one end of the box on the outside of it. Car was rolled up into a 1" piece of foam.

JoeG

That's the way the early MTH repros were shipped. I've seen plain-box items with either MTH or Lionel plates. At this point I know of no way to tell if it left the factory that way or if somebody changed the plates later. I don't think there's a huge price difference either way - it would be worth more with Lionel plates, but not all that much more. 

The 214 was made in 4 colors in 1985. My book did not say how they were badged. Production of each color was about 85.

This packaging was called brown box Mikes Train House by collectors.

BTW they had a MSRP of $99.95 thirty years ago.

Great! Well either way I feel pretty good. The car looks like it just came out of production, and I picked it up for $49.99.

JoeG

You got a great deal. Those early ones with the Lionel plates are nice.