Finding which freight cars are correct for a time period?

The ultimate source is probably the Car Builders' Cyclopedia. It was (perhaps still is) published every few years as a reference for railroad car builders and buyers. It's kind of expensive, but there's nothing like it for authenticity. Copies show up on eBay from time to time and are also sometimes available from online used-book sellers. I have one from the 1950's and I think it set me back 60 or 70 bucks. 

Besides the CBC, I strongly urge getting the:

1.  1943 Official Railway Equipment Register (ORER), available from the NMRA for $26

2.  The Postwar Freight Car Fleet available at abebooks.com for $70

The ORER will give you all the types of freight cars, along with their dimensions, for every freight car owned by every railroad.

The Postwar Freight Car Fleet book will give you photos and discussion of many of the freight cars that were in service during and before WWII.

Additional info sources are the various Color Guide to the Freight and Passenger Cars of... Railroad    series.

ChipR

Generally speaking, and I'm talking VERY generally, you're going to be looking for wood or steel sided boxcars 40' in length.  Most will be boxcar red, mineral red, tuscan red ( all variants on brown.)  Same goes for stock cars, some will be black. 

If it doesn't have a roofwalk, has fancy graphics and contemporary reporting marks (like BNSF, CSX, NS...) and is 50 or more feet in length, move along, nothing to see there.

Wood sided refers would be the bright spot as "billboard" reefers weren't outlawed until the late 30's (as I recall.)  These cars were rolling billboards for beer, meat and other desirable perishable commodities. all will have I hatches on the ends, there was no mechanical refrigeration back then.

Open hopper cars would be wood and steel, or steel two bays, around 34' in length.  Any covered hopper cars would be converted open hopper cars.

Tank cars would be about 8,000-10,000 gallons, also around 40' in length, mostly black or silver with 1, 2 or 3 domes.

As I said, this is a generalization.  Lacking a Car Builders' Cyc, it's going to take research from multiple sources to find out what you need specifically for the time period you're interested in.

Rusty

Thank you.  I could not locate that title, however, I did come across Professor John White of the Smithsonian Institute: "The American Railroad Freight Car: from the wood car era to the coming of steel".  This was also linked to a 2-volume work on the passenger train.

I hope these provide what I am looking for, but, regardless of that I imagine I will learn more from the hundreds of detailed drawings and original blueprints contained in these books than I could probably ever use.  The (3) volume set went for 109.58 with shipping.

Sounds like two references I am going to have to hunt and have long needed.....

For years I have wished kitbuiilders would just stamp the year the modeled car first

went into service on the end of the box...and that would apply to 3 rail stuff from

any mfr.  A grossly out of period freight car is like putting a model Lexus on your

layout depecting the Rio Grande Southern in operation.

Thank you all very much.  I was looking for the first book suggested by Mr. Hiawatha when you Gents provided with both great buying tips and additional reference books to purchase.  Thanks again for all the great information and the fast replies.  I am just getting started, but I have 30 years of cabinet&furniture making, antique firearm restoration, carving and wood turning under my belt to draw from, as far as previous skill sets go.  I don't think my mead making and moon-shinin' will be of much help here. 

It is helpful to have done other things but, this is a brand new door I am walking through.

So thank you for the help.

db

Here's an online link to look over:

http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/index.html

Will you be modeling a specific railroad?  Most "Fallen Flag" RRs have a Historical Society or one that might cover it.  I model the Seaboard Air Line and there's one for them:

http://www.aclsal.org/

Also, this site has copies of articles and magazines that may help:

http://www.trainlife.com/

I was actually contemplating several lines over time or probably more correctly, several types.  Since I have this big empty barn to work in, and I am partial to the Appalachian timber and copper industries in my neck of the woods (Smoky Mountains).  I also had a Great Uncle who was an Engineer on the Queen & Crescent (Cincinnati /Chattanooga/New Orleans).  I thought the portion from Chattanooga to New Orleans lent it self to some interesting modeling of scenery and unique structures, especially New Orleans.  I purchased the "3rdPlanit" cad-based design software so I don't jump off too quick and end up off in wrong direction.  I do think I could start modeling some structures and picking up some cars as bargains arise.  I do want the timber & mining part though, regardless of where the rest of the big empty barn takes me.

If I am already going off in a wrong direction for getting started, please holler out.

I gladly accept opinions and advice from anyone willing to offer.

db

I neglected to mention in my original post that the Car Builders' Cyclopedia has a great wealth of side-view roster photos, detail photos, and scale drawings of period freight cars. Also there are a lot of pictures of various detail parts such as trucks, doors, brake rigging, etc. that were provided to the car builders by various parts suppliers. If you are going to be scratchbuilding or modifying freight cars, this is what you want. As I mentioned, the book is not always easy to find and usually pricey when you do find it, but it's worth it. It was issued every three years, beginning with the eleventh edition in 1925. Before that it was called the Car Builders' Dictionary. It was first published in 1879. My copy is the 21st edition, from 1961. It is 942 pages of glossy black and white text and photos. 

Something else I should have added - there is a series of magazine-format paperbacks called "Train Shed Cyclopedia" consisting of excerpts from the Locomotive and Car Builders' Cyclopedias. Each volume focuses on a particular type of car or locomotive from a particular period. I think they are out of print but are readily found on eBay or from some dealers. Typical price is $10.00 plus shipping per volume. 

Let me toss in the Railway Prototype Cyclopedias, 26 volumes and counting.

ChipR

I appreciate the car numbering photo as an identifier of date of mfg.  I will certainly remember that when buying in person at a show or swap meet.  I did try to zoom in tight enough on the auction sites to make those out, however most of those photos are at too low of a resolution to read the numbers.  They just become white or black blobs. 

Granted, I am not trying to populate a collection from 2nd hand stock only off of DASH/Ebay/Upillar etc etc. however, if I can obtain some to get started with, at 40-70% off retail, I would like to do so.  I am literally starting out with an empty building and a decision to go O-scale.

The one aspect that has caught me off guard, is the price of the quality model kits both cars and especially structures. Wow! some of these wooden kits are $1000.00 +.  Since I am set on timber and ore, I went to look for wooden kits for these...Sticker Shock!  A timber processing mill complex will be a little over $5,000.00 in structure kits by the time all the kits are purchased. 

Bluebeard459,

Be careful to look for OTHER dates that may be painted on various rolling stock, such as re-weigh date, re-pack date, and re-build date, especially if you are modeling a specific time frame/era.  Just because a boxcar may have a "BLT 10-1948" manufacture date, look carefully fox any "RPK" or "RW" date & location that may be well into the 1960s. Thus if you are modeling, say the mid 1950s, you may not want re-pack, re-weigh, or re-build dates after, say 1957, no mater when the car was actually built.

And if you want to keep as much as possible to a prototypical timeline, you still need to do some research, most if not all the manufacturers of rolling stock fudge a bit on their offerings (in other words, they'll print whatever is necessary to sell it).  I even have an Atlas boxcar that I found out a couple of weeks ago IS NOT ACCURATE for what it is painted for.

My problem is while I try to keep from buying inaccurate items, I use them in periods where they are wrong,  like my Seaboard Whalebelly Hopper behind a steam engine.  Some of the nicer, accurate cars I have didn't appear on the Seaboard until about 2 years prior to their merger with ACL.

Do your homework if you want to save $$$ and keep things right.  If nothing else, ask here on the forum

Anachronisms can be fun. Here's a Schnabel car being pulled by a 1920's SP Harriman Mikado.

-

You seem to have the space available and a strong inclination to model as toward the prototypical as is practical.   

I suggest you seriously consider 2 rail.   

Also, I suggest you narrow your research to a few favorite RRs.   Then gather some reference material on those RRs in your time period.    It will narrow down the numbers of freight cars you will be looking at some.  A lot of photo books list the date in the caption.    If you look at the photo, you can see the paint schemes in use at that date as more information to tie down what freight cars and schemes are appropriate.

Here's a link to some data I found:

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/AA00009723/00008/allvolumes

You can pick a year and month and see approx. the ratio of rolling stock of the home road vice foreign roads on the home roads track.

I looked at the January 1953 table and Seaboard Air Line had 12,049 home cars and 16,022 foreign cars on their tracks for that month.  Choose a RR you want to model and which RRs had connecting lines with it, then divide the 16,022 cars between the connecting RRs and add a few in for RRs that did not connect.

Of course 28,000 pieces of rolling stock may even be too much for your barn , but if you took like .005% that would be 140 cars, in Seaboard's case that would be 60 home cars and 80 foreign cars.

Go Gators!

Looks like my presumption of no mixed liveries on the same line is massively incorrect.

Smoky Mountains?  Perhhaps the best known logging road there was the Little River

RR on the Tennessee side in what became Smoky Mountain National Park. There had

to be other logging roads in the area, on Tenn. side and N.C. side.  And there was the

narrow gauge Tweetsie (East Tennessee and Western North Carolina), revered today

by many, and in its own time, in the area.  What copper industry in the Smokies?  I

am aware of copper mining in the U.P. of Michigan and in Arizona, but not that area, or is it manufacturing?

Copper Hill Tennessee, so named for the long running mines and rich copper veins in the area ran for many years, just down the highway a bit from me.  There are still a good bit of of structures and left overs from the various mining operations.  You can even find some of the timber bridges back up in the cuts.

There were also gold mines in the Smokies.  Not big ones mind you, but organized mines none-the-less.

If I went to a 2rail system, would I not have to seek out the very expensive locos and/or the ones you build yourself?  Also, not having the background in model railroading that you Gents do, am I not also asking for a long and steep learning curve?

I really like the stuff coming out of MTH and though I use computers on a daily basis, I do not have any inclination to program them, hence the end user friendly aspect of the MTH DCS system appeals to me very much.  Honestly, If I could go back to a "bake-a-lite" rotary phone from Ma Bell, I would do so and never look back.

I genuinely admire the folks who spend such an enormous expenditure of time and sweat maticulously craft each detail of their track ties, car details and ensuring that every bolt, fitting and hinge on a locomotive is exactly as it was back then.  I have great respect for that, but I do not think it is for me.  I want realism to the point where folks see the layout and the scenery and the structures and they are wowed. 

I want the nephews and nieces to be awed and interested enough to maybe, just maybe, put down the I-phones and tablets and video game consoles and ask if they can run the trains awhile or dare I hope, actually build something for the railroad in the shop with me and then all by themselves.

The younger folks have their imaginary worlds pre-packaged and handed to them to escape to under someone else's rules and design.  If I can get one of them interested in the sense of accomplishment and joy of creating their imaginary world with their own imaginations and their own hands, every dime and all of the time will have been more than worth it.

While I have taken my turn at computer gaming addiction -- long time ago -- what you point out troubles me as well. If you watch sports at all, the amount of ads devoted to gaming is astonishing. And they are targeting a much broader audience these days. Hats off to you for passing the hobby on to the next generation.

2-Rail does not necessarily require super-expensive locomotives, as most MTH Premier locomotives are available in a convertible format where you can swap out the wheels for scale wheels and the unit is pre-wired for either 2-rail or 3-rail. Weaver and 3rd Rail brass locomotives are also made in your choice of 2- or 3-rail, as are Atlas diesels, but they are not easily converted. Lionel has no 2-rail option. Atlas and Weaver rolling stock is available in either format. Most MTH Premier cars have the mounting pads for Kadee couplers - BUT you have to go to the trouble of swapping the wheels or trucks for scale type, as they do not sell cars ready to run with scale wheels and Kadee-type couplers. 

2-rail operation generally requires much larger curves than 3-rail. Fine if you have the room; not so fine if you don't.

Also, you mention wanting to build something that will interest your nieces and nephews. That suggests interactive accessories such as coal loaders, milk cars, or various other operating this and that. All of those kind of accessories are made for 3-rail; some of them are easily adapted, others not so much.

Hi-rail or "3-rail scale" are acceptable options that give you a much broader set of options for low to moderate cost locomotives, rolling stock, and accessories. I'd be looking in that direction rather than 2-rail. 

A few years ago one of my co-workers found a piece of light rail on some property he bought near Sunbury NC.  Another co-worker who lived nearby in Winton NC helped me find info that the Suffolk & Carolina RR ran thru both towns.  The rail is approx 18 lb rail I think and the RR was narrow gauge (3'-6").  The piece of rail I have is about 3 feet long, I plan on making bookends out of 2 pieces of it.

They owned 5 passenger cars, 88 pieces of rolling stock, and 4 locomotives, at least 1 was a 4-4-0.  Not sure what freight they hauled, but they were originally a lumber company.

My nephews and nieces are teen and pre-teens so I doubt I will put in the active accessories I have seen so far for O-Gauge.  I am interested in some of the truly amazing working models I have seen in the European layouts.  Operating saw mills, grist mill buildings with operating water wheels, moving traffic, animated timber felling at lumber camp scenes etc.  All of these scenery affectations are well built and realistic; not at all "campy" or toy-like.

That type of scenery animation would be well worth the trouble and cost to make.

Can't say this blog isn't educational.  First I knew there was copper mining in Tenn., and I see that Copperhill barely made it into Tenn., being in the very corner of the

state bordering Ga. and North Carolina.  Gold mining there is no surprise as it existed in North Carolina not that far away, and before the California rush.  Certainly another opportunity for a model railroad with a unique. little known theme.  Wonder if there are any books published on the railroad history of the copper mining in that area?

Probably logging there, too, so there might be.

Freight cars are fun.  And I was into freight cars before freight cars became cool!

If I could have just 2 or 3 books on freight cars it would first be the NMRA's hardbound book "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet".   Probably the most comprehensive steam era freight car book out there.   Hundreds of pictures of freight cars, taken standalone, broken down by type (boxcar, hopper, flat car, etc).  A must have reference and awesome to see car after car with bygone logos and name train names.   

The next up I would get is the Ted Culotta book "Stean Era Freight Cars Reference Manual - Volume One: Box and Automobile Cars".  This picture book is only box cars but it shows the progression of box cars from the 1900's up through the postwar (early 1950's) era.  And nope, all box cars don't look the same!

After these two I'd pick a specific interest book.  Three good ones are Gene Green's "Refrigerator Car Color Guide" and Robert Karig's "Coal Cars - the first three hundred years" or Signature Press's "Pacific Fruit Express".   Fun reading about train cars and the industries that they serve.

These books would give you a really great feeling from where all of those freight car models the manufacturers are putting out and where all those neat paint schemes come from!  And none of the are boring or dry. they're filled with cool pictures.

Once you get the first one and even a few of the others you'll find yourself wanting the other reference books such as railway equipment registers and Car Builders' cyclopedias. 

Once you get some fun reading books you'll want to go on web sites like shorpy.com and look at all of the WWII pictures of train cars in their workaday world.

BTW, those things on the bottom of hopper cars are often referred to as "bays" but are more accurately called "pockets"...  a "3 bay hopper car"  is a "3 pocket hopper car". 

Rob,

I couldn't agree with you more on your reference materials.

BB4590,

Please keep posting your questions, several of us absolutely love helping newbies.

ChipR

Bluebeard

You have received plenty of reading suggestions.  You might also want to look up the historical societies for your favorite railroads.  They may have in depth information on line or in print.

A note on the Morning Sun color guides:  The manufacturers all seem to have copies and many of the paint schemes and car numbers that get produced come from the color guides, even if they are applied to a model that isn't quite the same a the prototype.

For information on models that have been produced recently in O scale you may find the O Scale Freight Car Guide threads helpful.

https://ogrforum.com/t...le-freight-car-guide

I may need to "light somewhere" as my Grandfather used to say to as a boy.

My mind jumps from idea to idea when I am jazzed about something new in my life, so bear with me, if you will.

I latched on to your idea of researching a particular line, and since I have not watched television in 13 years, I have time do these things. Having had a relative on my Mother's side of the family that worked the Queen & Crescent line, I began to research that last night and this morning.

The result is either a golden opportunity or a poke in the eye.  I am still configuring my perspective:  There are plenty of "Madison" style Pullman cars out there to be had.  Some even carry a Cresent line name.  Here is the rub: I discovered that those cars are 15-20 years beyond the time period and sadly the route of that particular line.

The search for a set of or individual Pullman cars before the late 40s early50s was disappointing (futile so far)

I then began searching out model kits for that style of Pullman.  None so far.

Since I am cooped up in an apartment in North Dakota until my latest power-plant project is completed, I thought that would be a nice portable activity to do now that it is in the single digits outside.

Any suggestions on finding the older Pullman cars from the 1930s as kits to build?

MTH is re-releasing the Queen & Crescent Limited loco and tender soon, so I thought I would start building some cars to give me something to do while I am not home in my workshop.

If I should have started a new topic for passenger cars, let me know.  I am also new to forum etiquette.

The following information on prototypical railroad consists may be of interest to you:

When building freight consists for your favorite road, it is fun to know what the mix of cars would have been in a particular train. This information is highly era-dependent, and I’m most familiar with the 1930’s to 1950’s. If your interests lie in modern railroading, you’ll need to rely on someone else.

Overall, the US freight car fleet in 1948 had the following percentages:

36% Boxcars (mostly single-door 40-foot)

31% Hopper Cars

8% Tank Cars

7% Refrigerator Cars

7% Gondolas

3% Stock Cars

3% Flat Cars

3% Automobile Boxcars (mostly double-door 50-foot)

1% Covered Hoppers

1% Other

Some large adjustments must be made for different regions of the country. For example, most of the hoppers were on eastern lines like the PRR, N&W, VGN, B&O, C&O, LV, etc. Western roads had only about 10% of the hoppers during this railroading era. Let’s ignore seasonal shipments such as fruit, vegetables, and cattle and focus on typical railroad consists.

Now, what road names do you include in your consist? How many “home road” cars should there be? It depends a lot on the railroad. I have some information listed below from 1944 that details the percentages of the home road and other road cars that were mixed in with the following railroads.

Erie, Wabash, CNJ, ACL, Southern, Rock Island, SP, and MoPac ran a mix of 25-30% home and 70-75% others.

D&H, B&O, IC, C&NW, CB&Q, and UP ran a mix of 35-40% home and 60-65% others.

PRR, Milwaukee Road, GN, NP, ATSF, and D&RGW ran a mix of 45-55% home and 45-55% others.

The champion is N&W, which ran 78% of its home road equipment. The runners up in second and third place are C&O and L&N with 68 and 66% home road freight cars respectively. At the other end of the spectrum are NKP and B&M with 16 and 17% home road cars. Boston & Albany came in last with only 5 percent (although technically NYC cars should probably also be counted as home road).

About three-fourths of the “other” cars should be from roads that interchanged with your railroad. The right regional mix of cars can really make your train look realistic.

If you primarily model one railroad, like I do with PRR, then freight car purchases can be made with the above data in mind. You can limit what you buy to the cars that will “fit” your region of the country and the time frame for the railroad (my railroad is circa 1953). You can buy less and yet have more fun.

Oh, by the way, in the steam era the Pennsylvania Railroad owned about 30% of the entire nationwide interchange fleet, so you cannot possibly go wrong with having some Pennsy on your roster (a shameless plug). B&O and C&O owned about another 35% of the nationwide interchange fleet, so they were widespread as well.

Now, just how long should that consist be? If there are grades on your railroad then the answer is, “Shorter than you think!” The C&O had to negotiate Cheviot Hill outside Cincinnati, which was at a 1.9-% grade westbound. C&O K-1, K-2, and K-3 Mikado’s, which were some of the heaviest 2-8-2s ever built, could each pull only 11 loaded 50-ton hoppers (these are the short 2-bay hoppers like those made by Weaver) up the grade. This required 50-car hopper trains to have five 2-8-2s, one or two on the lead, one or two cut in the middle, and two trailing pushers. These were not the only locomotives that labored as they pulled the steep grades common to the C&O railroad. Their mighty H6 2-6-6-2 articulated locomotives were only capable of pulling 16 to 17 loaded hoppers up the 2.5% grades common in the coal country of West Virginia. If you have 2% or 3% grades on your layout, then trains should not be very long unless they have multiple engines.

For diesel fans, most first-generation diesel units like the FT, F-3, FA, and RS-3, could only handle about two-thirds of the load of a typical 2-8-2 steamer. The FT diesels used by the Santa-Fe were rated at one loaded car per axle when traversing the Cajon Pass grade. This loading factor limited a FT ABBA set to hauling only 16-cars up its grade. Both steam and diesel motive power could handle about 3 or 4 times as many cars on level terrain as they could on a 2% grade.

If you are interested in replicating a prototypical consist on your layout, fewer cars in the train and less variety in road names can both be very realistic.

--Greg

Well said, Mr Houser. Valuable information for those wanting to move beyond a collection of brightly painted plastic cars.

I concur. That's a lot of useful information and explains a lot.

Greg

Just like with today's unit trains vs. intermodal trains, steam era loaded coal trains put a lot of tonnage in a relatively few cars compared to manifest freights with a mix of emptys and loads and cars loaded to less than their maximum tonnage capacity.  It would be good to keep that in mind when modeling a variety of traffic.

You picked a great example with a heavy mike in coal service on a heavy grade.

Now, just how long should that consist be? If there are grades on your railroad then the answer is, “Shorter than you think!” The C&O had to negotiate Cheviot Hill outside Cincinnati, which was at a 1.9-% grade westbound. C&O K-1, K-2, and K-3 Mikado’s, which were some of the heaviest 2-8-2s ever built, could each pull only 11 loaded 50-ton hoppers (these are the short 2-bay hoppers like those made by Weaver) up the grade.

Those 11 loaded hoppers would make for something just over 800 tons.  But a manifest freight of the same era would likely be in the 16 to 20 car range for similar tonnage.

And a note on two bay 50 ton hoppers:  They are available from Atlas, K-line, Lionel, MTH and Weaver.    

https://ogrforum.com/t...-55-ton-open-hoppers

The FT diesels used by the Santa-Fe were rated at one loaded car per axle when traversing the Cajon Pass grade. This loading factor limited a FT ABBA set to hauling only 16-cars up its grade

Were those FTs equipped with gearing for passenger service?  With 65 MPH gearing common on freight units one A-B-B-A set of FTs would be rated at 2500 tons.  That would typically be 30 to 50 cars in the 1940s.  With 45 MPH gearing for helper service the tonnage rating would be even higher.

Matt

Great to see you back! 

Sounds like the Murphy Branch of the Southern might be a good choice to model.  The Graham County connected at Topton.  The GC was Shay powered.  At one time the branch of the L&N that came into Murphy connected to the Southern.  This became the only route into Ashville after the floods in 191?. 

When looking at photos look behind the main subject to see what is in the background.  That is frequently more interesting than the subject.  Lots of neat rolling stock and structures show up that way.

On another note, yes , NC was the leading gold producing state prior to 1849.  The Reed Gold Mine is a state historic site near Concord.  It is an easy side trip from the Lionel center.

George Lasley