I was thinking just recently about how some railcars sometimes hop in other railroads, is this common? I know that it may be more common today with short line railroads carrying Fallen Flag railroads but it sort of begged the question of what was it really like for railroads? I know that sets back in the day mixed freight cars, but were those cars tied to that rail line? The New York Central sets in the past have had a mix of what I guess was their short lines, is this true? Is there a list of smaller lines per bigger railroads somewhere and is it prototypical?
Replies sorted oldest to newest
I was thinking just recently about how some railcars sometimes hop in other railroads, is this common?
Sure it is common....Think about it, once a car is loaded and on it's way to the final destination, each railway is not going to unload and reload it in one of their own cars....
So this would mean it would be possible let's say to see an eastern railroad car on the west coast and vice versa?
Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:So this would mean it would be possible let's say to see an eastern railroad car on the west coast and vice versa?
Absolutely. See it all the time. I haven't seen any oil trains passing through lately but when they were very common, it was not uncommon for BNSF power to be pulling the train as well.
It all depends on the final destination of the load. For example: California produce picked, packed and shipped in SP/UP refrigerator reefers end up on the east coast some how. Conversely, the empties make it back to California. So you would see these reefers all over the US.
The concept is called interchange. This also applies to the trailers and containers on flat cars.
Google vintage freight car photos......it's more rare to see a string of home road cars than a mix of every road........
Check out the PRR X-29 behind the UP Challenger!! Kinda looks like a traditional box car and scale loco!!!
What's the economic game...load one of your own boxcars (any car) on your line and ship it as far away as possible...so, other roads have to load (or maybe not load) and send it back your way??
I thought any time a rail car is on someone else's line...that line is paying your railroad to use it. Is that the way it works...though I suppose there's some time frame they have to return the car...free of charge???
Maybe some of you smart guys can fill me in.
SD60M posted:What's the economic game...load one of your own boxcars (any car) on your line and ship it as far away as possible...so, other roads have to load (or maybe not load) and send it back your way??
Exactly.
I thought any time a rail car is on someone else's line...that line is paying your railroad to use it. Is that the way it works...though I suppose there's some time frame they have to return the car...free of charge???
It is called "Demurrage Charges", thus when the railroad who owns the specific car, ships it with its load, off line, that receiving railroad/railroads then pat a daily Demurrage to the owner, if the car is NOT returned to the owner within 24 hours.
Maybe some of you smart guys can fill me in.
Are you now "filled in"?
its all about how the railroad can make money, each railroad pays a fee to another railroad to move one of its cars...to and from...they can move a single car or an entire train....depends on the load and destination. the fees vary on how far and how much. if you decide to ship your factory full of widgets to the other side of the country by rail, you contact one railroad, they already know how many roads got to haul their car and the fees are tacked on your bill, the car comes back to the home railroad either empty or full, depending if the railroad finds a factory full of muffler bearings they need shipped to their side of the world....then they are really raking in the dough.....cause the widget company pays a fee for the car to come back either way....the muffler bearing guy doesn't know (or care) he just wants his product moved.....so the widget guy and the muffler bearing guy are constantly paying for one (or 50) cars to yo-yo back and forth .......forever!
The interline movement of freight cars between respective railroads is called interchange. Once a car is on a foreign line (any railroad other than its home road) the foreign line pays the home road (the railroad which owns the car) a per diem charge for use of the car while it is off-line. The per diem charge is low for cars with low demand, and high for high-demand or special equipment cars. When a car is placed on the delivery track, the consignee has 48 hours to unload the car, clean it if necessary, and release it to the delivering railroad. If the consignee keeps the car for more than 48 hours, he is charged demurrage for keeping the car from being loaded again and earning money. Demurrage is charged, whether the car is a home road car or a foreign line car, and is charged daily on a progressive scale, i.e., the longer the consignee holds the car, the higher the daily demurrage charge.
Private owner cars (with reporting marks ending in X, like GATX) are handled under different rules and there is too much variation in them to put here. Let's just say it's different and leave it at that.
Railroads still have people who keep track of all these charges, and the railroads settle accounts quarterly (if I remember correctly) instead of daily, although the cars accrue charges daily.
This is just the accounting for use of a freight car. In addition, and separate from all of this, is the freight rate. The charge for transporting the car on an interline movement is charged, usually to the shipper, and is divided between the particular railroads which handle the car, according to published rate division documents.
I always wondered how maintenance worked. If wheels,bearings or trucks need to repaired or changed? I assume the road from where the car came from would have to pay another crew from another road to do repairs?
Chris Lonero posted:I always wondered how maintenance worked. If wheels,bearings or trucks need to repaired or changed? I assume the road from where the car came from would have to pay another crew from another road to do repairs?
Absolutely. The Pennsy or New York Central aren't going to send a crew out to Sacramento to repair one of their cars sitting on the SP RIP track or vice-versa.
Rusty
Rusty is correct .....car repair was standardized between the railroads a long time ago.....the Sacramento guys know how to fix a pennsy or NYC car...
Repairs to freight cars while on a foreign line are charged to the home road, at rates specified by Association of American Railroads agreements. It is similar to the flat rate that auto mechanics use for various repairs and inspections.
It should be no surprise that Car Inspectors often look more critically at foreign line cars when making train yard inspections.
absolutely Tom....that's a chance to make money....a railroad's own broken equipment would be like a red headed step child....
Well...Mr. Hot Water...while there are many, many smarter-than-me guys on this forum...you have always struck me as one of the smartest...and nicest also...you have definitely "filled me in."
Happy 4th of July to everyone!
This all sounds like a huge nightmare to keep track of!! How many thousands of RR cars are there? They probably have some pretty elaborate tracking systems developed. I would guess the people assigned to track all this stuff and develop the tracking systems, then figure the charges, costs or whatever are some of Excedrin's best customers.
All this seems pretty amazing to me that they can reliably track all these things!
Which years on the New York Central railroad?
rtr12 posted:This all sounds like a huge nightmare to keep track of!! How many thousands of RR cars are there? They probably have some pretty elaborate tracking systems developed. I would guess the people assigned to track all this stuff and develop the tracking systems, then figure the charges, costs or whatever are some of Excedrin's best customers.
All this seems pretty amazing to me that they can reliably track all these things!
Back in the "old days", the railroads had many, many, many employees in the Car Tracing Department (my dad worked in the PRR Car Tracing Dept., prior to WWII). Today, it is all done by computer, as every piece of rolling stock has a digital "chip" mounted on each side, and there are electronic "readers" at all major yards & terminals throughout the entire U.S. rail network.
And you might have interchange within a railroad system.
SP had lines west, east and north of El Paso TX. Yet, there was interchange on east-west and north to east traffic. Why? East of EP the SPL line was the T&NO, which was a separate road from the main SP west and north of EP. Hence, interchange rules applied to SP and T&NO cars crossing that line. Each leased or had some sort of run through agreements on diesels on the SUNSET.
Most of these payments were on paper, but were required.
At one time a RR operating in TX had to have a HQ in the state. Most large systems had their own company based in TX. This requirement was removed around 1960. T&NO merged into real SP in the early 1960's.
On the MP side, this got to be really complicated because they had many lines which interchanged with each other IN the state.
Now, in Houston there was the Houston Belt and Terminal. What were the interchange rules with a terminal or union railroad.
I bet that was really difficult before computers, when they had to do it all by hand, person, pencil & paper etc. Computers and electronics would certainly streamline the operation.
rtr12 posted:I bet that was really difficult before computers, when they had to do it all by hand, person, pencil & paper etc. Computers and electronics would certainly streamline the operation.
Very true, however lets not forget that som of the most famous and complicated machines of the 20th Century, were ALL designed with pencils, paper and slide rules,,,,,,not to mention the brains of those many geniuses back then.
Tom did a great job of explaining how it works with railroad owned equipment. I'll try to provide an explanation of how it generally works with private cars. Pour a drink and settle in.
Cars owned by the big leasing companies such as Union Tank Car (UTLX); Trinity (TILX); Chicago Freight Car Leasing (CRDX); SMBC/ARL (SHPX) or GATX - to name a few; are leased to shippers for terms typically running anywhere from 5-10 years.
Many shippers will go with a full service lease meaning the leasing company is responsible for repairs to brakes, wheels, draft gear and so on. The shipper/lessee is normally responsible for stuff like gaskets, caps and chains, dome lids, graffiti removal, valves and fittings and so on. On hopper cars this responsibility can also be extended to cover discharge gates, slide tracks and capstans. Lessors cover the cost of regulatory compliance on the car itself while the shipper/lessee owns and is responsible for the car lining if there is one. If a private car becomes bad order enroute; the railroad will stop the car, make the necessary repairs and charge the car owner according to the same AAR shop rates Tom mentions in his post above. If the repair is to an item which is the responsibility of the car owner, they absorb the cost. If the repair is to an item which is the shipper/lessees responsibility, the car owner will pay the railroad and rebill the cost to the shipper/lessee. Damage to the body of a private car or to the safety appliances, which cannot be attributed to a railroad, becomes the responsibility of the shipper/lessee.
Railroads price shipments moving in private cars differently than shipments moving in railroad owned equipment; the primary difference being that rates for shipments in railroad owned equipment include an equipment cost whereas rates for shipments in private cars do not. For through rated shipments, the shipper will pay a single freight invoice and that revenue is divided up among the railroads according to private division agreements. Shippers can also use what is referred to as Rule 11 whereby rates are negotiated individually with each railroad participating in a move. Each railroad then invoices freight to the shipper only for the portion of the move over their respective lines.
In the past; railroads paid the car owner a certain amount per loaded mile traveled which the car owner passed along to the car lessee. The amount paid was determined by the type of equipment and it's age along with some other factors. Most private car shippers today have zero rated their shipments for mileage earnings in return for a rate reduction that reflects the loaded mileage the car would otherwise have earned. This allows the shipper to realize that value more or less immediately whereas the mileage payments used to be paid about four months or so after the shipment had actually taken place.
Under private car mileage equalization rules; railroads will also charge car owners for excess empty mileage. Basically a private car is allowed total empty miles equaling 106% of the loaded miles the car travels annually. Any mileage in excess of that number is charged to the car owner who passes the cost along to the shipper/lessee.
Historically; railroads handled movement of private cars to the shop under these same mileage equalization rules but; in the past few years UP and BNSF both have begun to charge freight on cars moving to a shop when the empty shop move is not immediately preceded by a loaded revenue move. The other Class 1 railroads still honor mileage equalization for all shop moves - not just those immediately preceded by a loaded revenue move.
Railroads do not charge demurrage on private equipment, regardless how long it is held, so long as the private car is held on private track. They will charge demurrage for private cars held on railroad tracks; however.
In terms of the tracking of private cars - both loaded and empty - most private car shippers utilize rail fleet tracking software put out by a number of companies such as Intellitrans; ShipExpress, Bourque Data Systems or UPDS to name a few. All rail cars - both private and railroad owned - are equipped with two AEI (automated equipment identification) tags attached to either side of a rail car. These software providers gather the location information generated when a car passes an AEI scanner - typically located at the entrance and exit points of classification yards and at wayside installations spaced at roughly 40 mile intervals along main line and secondary main line trackage. The information is transmitted to shippers electronically and available for viewing in various formats. This has taken the place of the tracing clerks Jack mentions in his post. I'll note the cost of these rail fleet / rail shipment tracking systems is borne by the shipper.
This kind of gives you an overview of how private cars are handled on our railroads.
Curt
Hot Water posted:rtr12 posted:I bet that was really difficult before computers, when they had to do it all by hand, person, pencil & paper etc. Computers and electronics would certainly streamline the operation.
Very true, however lets not forget that som of the most famous and complicated machines of the 20th Century, were ALL designed with pencils, paper and slide rules,,,,,,not to mention the brains of those many geniuses back then.
I wouldn't forget those folks. I almost added that there were probably fewer mistakes back in the old days too, but I didn't. In the '80s I did some drafting with a pencil for my employer. Then they got computers with Autocad. I don't think I ever let a mistake get out with the old pencil, but the CAD was another story, really easy to miss things or copy & paste and forget to change or delete something etc. BAck then the screens were pretty small and that made missing things pretty easy as well. At least they have larger monitors these days, but I am still very glad I am retired!
The old timers with the pencils and slide rules I think did a much better job back then too. More thorough and reliable and if one looks at what all was accomplished in WWII they did things very quickly too. I think they got to the moon that way as well!! Pretty amazing stuff when you look back on it all.
rtr12 posted:..... The old timers with the pencils and slide rules I think did a much better job back then too. More thorough and reliable ....
OUCH!
Computers, CAD and associated modern things are just tools......just like a slide rule, dividers and T square were just tools. Boils down to who is using them and the care they take.
When I started making decals the artwork was drawn by hand on white board. Now I am on the 15th version of CorelDraw......faster and easier than hand drawn......but still boils down to the operator.
rtr12 posted:I bet that was really difficult before computers, when they had to do it all by hand, person, pencil & paper etc. Computers and electronics would certainly streamline the operation.
Don't forget, mankind has been doing things without computers and electronics for much longer than it has with computers and electronics.
Rusty
juniata guy posted:.....
This kind of gives you an overview of how private cars are handled on our railroads.
Curt
Thanks for the excellent explanation. Didn't have time to read it yesterday, but worth coming back to. I guess the shippers need lots of Excedrin as well!
Paperwork indeed. Our computer system at work had big issues(network not there) and I was talking to one of the sales guys about getting some vouchers as a joke. He said that some of the younger folks of today wouldn't even know what a voucher was. One of the guys I worked with used to write everything on scrap pieces of paper about whatever he was working on, even if the supervisor told him go work on something else. Great way to keep track of why something didn't get done, "See, you asked me to stop doing this one and work on this one right at 12:35PM". Miss that guy.
Really love this topic as it is so enlightening, thanks for all the information you all.
That was a really good explanation of private car accounting, Curt. Thanks for posting it.
Even with the impressive technology railroads use these days, a very small number of cars sort of disappear off the grid, so to speak. These are called lost cars. Usually, a car is lost within a yard and its switching limits. Sometimes a car is placed on a track and not properly recorded, giving the appearance in the computer system that the car is on a certain track, but it is not actually on that track. The railroads issue internal lost car messages, and somebody has to go out and physically look for the missing car.
Usually, the car is soon located, but, occasionally is not found because of something bizarre like a business hiding it inside a building and using it for storage, or the car accidentally being cut up at a scrap yard, or a railroad employee (usually a Switchman is in on this) surreptitiously keeping the car moving around within the switching limits and pilfering its contents. I recall a Los Angeles Switchman who, in collusion with a Yardmaster, always took a few tires out of loads shipped by Goodyear and Firestone, and sold them, until they were finally caught. The Yardmaster fixed the seal records when the cars were re-sealed and "found". But thieves are usually not as smart as they think they are. There was a pattern of lost cars containing tires, not just lost cars of all kinds.
A good bit of my time working was in railroading. I was a clerk and then a computer programmer for the GM&O/ICG RR. Some of the questions above have really taken me off-guard in the sense that I sometimes forget that many people in the "model" train hobby actually know very little about the real thing, especially from a business point of view. Not a slam at anyone, but it surprises me from time to time.
2 big concepts:
Interchange - the life blood of railroading, and a concept that allows your model layout to be as big as all of North America by modeling a couple of interchange yards - the cars come and go on and off stage, like a play.
The standardized Car Repair System from the AAR. This was ultimately based on the PRR's system, a long time ago, then adopted in improved form by the whole industry through the AAR. Any road can and will repair anyone's car at any car repair point. I used to write programs dealing with this. Interesting. They then bill each other for work done, at standard rates with standard parts.
So much more. Railroading is old (ancient, as the Industrial Revolution goes), complicated, clever, dangerous, hard work in and out of the office, and anything but romantic.