Goliath or Brute Pantograph

I think that they designed the Brute and Goliath pantographs to match the prototype.

 

But I'm sure that the prototype went up and down....just a very nice added feature that would be easily built

indydanny

Doc was referring to the MODEL prototype - the only one built at that time. 

Still, I would like to have had maybe a choice on the pantagraaphs. the ones on it whether or not made to replicate the original model, just detract from an otherwise very nice piece.

It could have marker lights like a regular 381. MTH is wise to keep it like the prototype because if they upgraded, it may upset original owners of the Brute.

I agree 100% with mdainsd it would be very very nice to have the choice f pantographs which could still happen. Simply to greatly enhance the looks of the model 

indydanny, I agree completely, that was one of my objections when I got my Brute and one of the reasons for getting rid of it.  For the price and size and all, the level and quality  of the trim, fit, and finish were all seriously deficient, and the pantographs were the worst.  I mean, really...   Yes, they were staying true to the original Brute model, but in this and many other respects also that was a questionable choice.  I find the Super 381 to be a much more satisfying locomotive to own and run: it has its issues which have been discussed here at length, but it's a good lookin beast.

 

 

To each his or her own, but personally I prefer my green Brute over the Super 381.

I picked up a Brute a few months ago and completely agree with Hojack about the fit and finish along with the detail parts. Can not blame MTH as this is a model of a prototype. The super 381 is so much more refined. It has marker lights a bigger bell and maybe even the whistle is larger. The pantographs are much better.

 

I guess all these parts are available from MTH so anyone can upgrade there Brute.

 

You guys would take the fun out of Jennifer Lopez AND Sandra Bullock AND Angelina Jolie...SHAKIN' My Head!!!

J Lo raises my pantograph. Ron what say you.

Saw her LIVE at a Letterman taping in New York...A beautiful woman!!!

Scarlett J. and Taylor Swift (met her in person when she shot a music video on my street here in Nashville!) are my current "crushes"! 

Thanks Bob

That would be perfect if lionel corporation could make them and match the holes to the ones on the brute/goliath and then use the same screws to replace them.

indydanny

Bob, 

the pantographs on the Richart locomotives look most like the ones on the Robert Hendrichs "Gold Standard" GG1:

 

 

 

 

Another possibility is the pantograph on the big McCoy E2:

 

 

 

The McCoy pantograph might be more readily available: I recently got a replacement from Bonnie, and I believe she and Bob Jr still have these in stock.

 

 

 

CLassic Models Corp also used the McCoy pantograph:

 

 

Are the pantographs on the GG1 attached with a single machine screw like those used by RichArt?

How many holes are drilled into the McCoy E2's roof to install each of its pantographs?  Does each plastic insulator on the bottom of the pantograph require a hole?

 

Bob

Yes, the big pantograph on the Hendrich GG1 appears to be attached with one machine screw at the center:

 

 

 

By contrast, the McCoy pantograph on the E2 is not held on by any screw:  it "pops" into place and is removable without tools.  There are four holes in the roof superstructure into which a pin on each corner of the pantograph pushes (these are not plastic, they appear to me to be stainless steel, same as the pantograph base):  at the same time, there is a central boss that is fixed to the roof and protrudes up into the pantograph.  To seat the pantograph, you have to line up the four corner pins in their holes, and then "pop" the center of the pantograph down over the protruding stud.  There is a spring mechanism in the bottom of the pantograph that "latches" onto a detent on the stud:

 

 

 

 

Interestingly, the CMC loco used the McCoy pantograph but used a different attachment method, by removing the McCoy pin "insulators", running a machine screw down through the pantograph legs at each corner and through the roof, with a new spacer "insulator", with nuts on the under side of the roof.  There is no center boss:

 

 

 

 

 

 

As an aside, the JAD GG1 from around the same period, also uses the McCoy pantograph, and it appears to attach the same way that McCoy used on the E2.

 

 

 

 

 

In operation, the McCoy pantograph has a spring which snaps the pantograph closed when it is pushed down and goes "over cam."  The larger Hendrich (which I believe is also your Richart) pantograph has a couple of brass clips to hold the pantograph down.  These are bent on my Hendrich GG1 and I have messed with them but can't get them working well to hold the pantograph down.

 

The big pantograph on the Hendrich/Richart measures 2-1/2" high (from the roof) when raised and 4-1/4" long when all the way down.  The McCoy is 2-3/8" high when fully raised but only 3" long front to back when closed.  These compare to the Lionel 408 pantograph which stands 1-3/4" tall when up, and is 2-1/2" long when down. This Lionel pantograph is also the one used on the Super 381.  It would be too small for the Brute.

 

The Hendrich/Richart pantograph is the largest and would be the best fit for the Brute.  But the McCoy with its "over cam" mechanism is the more user-friendly, and at this point probably easier to obtain.

 

I do not know who made the pantograph used on the Hendrichs (Roberts Lines) and Richart locos.  Arno may know.

 

 

hojack,

 

Thanks for posting those great photos!

 

The only difference I can detect between the pantograph installed your GG1 and those on my RichArt BiPolars is that the hole in the metal base plate of the BiPolar's pantographs has a slot extending from it.  Specifically, the hole is just large enough for the machine screw's head to pass it and has a slot extending to the rear that is smaller than head of the screw but slightly larger than the threaded shaft of the screw.  This allows you attach the pantographs to the BiPolar by lowering the pantograph over the screw head to the roof then sliding the pantograph forward horizontally so that machine screw's shaft is moved into the slot.  You then tighten down on the machine screw to firmly clamp the base of the pantograph between the head of the machine screw and roof of the BiPolar.  Very quick and easy to do.

 

Bob

 

Those arent McCoy pantagraphs, they are Lionel GG1 pantagraphs from the post war era.

They are a similar (very similar) design, but by the 1970's they were not available from Lionel.  Like the McCoy trucks; they look like Lionel 200 series trucks and wheels, but they are made by McCoy.  "The McCoy Story" book by Mark Horne, page 40, says that when McCoy introduced their first locomotive in 1969, "...The first 500 engines had permanently mounted pantographs which were made in Japan, whereas all later engines had McCoy-built snap-on pantographs."

 

Before making what we know as the line of McCoy trains, Bob McCoy made his name in the 1960's making and selling exact reproductions of Lionel parts and trains that were so good it caused an outcry from collectors as they could not be distinguished from the real thing.  That's when Bob decided to make his own line so there wouldn't be any controversy.  But the point is that he was extremely good at making Lionel parts.

 

Many of the other MESG train makers in the 1970's went to McCoy for parts:  for example, many Richart and Jim Cohen locomotives and cars have McCoy motors, wheels, and trucks.  Today, you can go to MTH for parts:  in the 1970's, Bob McCoy was the go-to man for standard gauge parts.

 

 

 

 

 

indydanny, here's another option for a good-looking, operating pantograph for the Brute: the LGB 63403 (2040/3).  It's BIG.  G-scale would be a perfect fit for the Brute!

 

Trainz has them, $20 ea.

 

 

 

 

 

also available in red,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It looks like one could make an adaptor plate with holes matching the current mounting holes and then holes or slots in that plate to accept the improved pantograph.

 

The pantograph down on the Brute is 5 1/2" this is 6 1/2" retracted. It looks like it will fit.

 

Other things look ridiculous on this engine like 2 bells and 2 whistles. Running lights on the front and back would look nice.