Good Day Mr. Scott Mann, How about presenting 21st Century Auto Racks?

Atlas did a version of the articulated car carriers.  There are so many other things he could do that would probably outsell them and be profitable.  Perhaps in brass but what would those sales be at brass prices?

Along the lines of new products,how about some  reruns in updated lettering for the Trainman 4750 cvd hoppers in CSX & new releases with other roadnames? Things have gone stagnant!

Al Hummel

The TM 4750's are such poor representations of the prototype I sold my sole example and got an OMI one.  The ends in particular are appalling and clunky . Atlas should re-engineer the whole project from scratch, it is inconceivable that something so poor could be designed in the 21st century.

Interesting, living in central Maryland, I don't ever recall seeing articulated auto carriers.  I always try to pay special attention whenever there are auto carriers, but only see the stand alone cars.  Granted, the CSX lines passing nearby don't have a lot of freight traffic.  Anyone have any guesses on the percentage of the auto carriers that are articulated?

Jim

Those are AutoMax cars.  Built by Gunderson in their Mexican factory.  I think over 1000 were built.

I worked in the design department on them from 1998 to 2009.  I designed the end doors which are FRP/balsa composite.  Also designed FRP composite end decks for the B-level decks and a spring assist system to allow the deck to be raised up by loaders so you can load the A-deck.  The original steel deck required a winch.

James Jarvis

Alan Hummel posted:

Along the lines of new products,how about some  reruns in updated lettering for the Trainman 4750 cvd hoppers in CSX & new releases with other roadnames? Things have gone stagnant!       Al Hummel

 

Al,    Nothing wrong with your request, but the topic was put to Scott Mann of 3rd Rail, and I don't think he has much influence on "Trainman" products. Perhaps a NEW topic is in order.

Simon

Limey posted:

The TM 4750's are such poor representations of the prototype I sold my sole example and got an OMI one.  The ends in particular are appalling and clunky . Atlas should re-engineer the whole project from scratch, it is inconceivable that something so poor could be designed in the 21st century.

Agreed  especially with such a popular prototype, with the exception of some early hoppers where Atlas changed from diecast to plastic bodies they have never upgraded any of their products detail wise, a Trinity level  covered hopper would only be a different version. At this point with Atlas going all in on the CZ project [assuming reservations justify it] the likely hood of anything else new or even some existing motive power projects coming any time soon seems remote based on past production.JMO

Banengo posted:

Those are AutoMax cars.  Built by Gunderson in their Mexican factory.  I think over 1000 were built.

I worked in the design department on them from 1998 to 2009.  I designed the end doors which are FRP/balsa composite.  Also designed FRP composite end decks for the B-level decks and a spring assist system to allow the deck to be raised up by loaders so you can load the A-deck.  The original steel deck required a winch.

 

James Jarvis

Would U know of any links to photos of it being built or drawings?

(I want to build them in 1/32 scale)

Joe,

Here are the specifications & exterior drawing of the Auto-Max on the BNSF site.

http://www.bnsf.com/customers/pdf/AutoMax-Specs.pdf

Here is a link to the manufacturer page for this Auto-Max.

http://www.gbrx.com/products-s...cturing/auto-max-ii/

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

more pictures ..................................

I'm afraid it's like with the shelf couplers that I & others want, with the autoracks-too small of a market for such an interest. I agree with your desire & that's not by ANY means all that's missing in the O scale market, I'm sorry to say.

But if we don't mention these things & keep at them,manufacturers will never bother with them on their own.

Al Hummel

Thanks guys!

If anyone thinks O scale is missing modern stuff, look at G scale!

I have these in HO scale still in the box from years ago. I guess my interests don't change much.

A well detailed [Atlas Trinity cars level] of the centerbeam flat cars w-w/o lumberloads [extra] would be well recieved, these are some of the most common cars on the RRs in recent years although both Lionel and MTH have made these cars they do not come close to the" Trinity" level of scale models.JMO

Limey, The TM Atlas grain car is no worse than a Weaver grain car. If that car had been brought out in Master series, I could understand the ire. 

Dick

Dick - you are missing the point I think, the Weaver car must be at least 20yrs old thereabouts so effectively Atlas have not take the hobby any further forward with the introduction of their 'interpretation'  - I am being polite here, of the PS4750 car.

I have Atlas cars that have been superbly executed in plastic, the Berwick car for instance, so it was a missed opportunity by Atlas to raise the bar with this product. If Atlas had released this to the public in Europe or Japan this product would not have sold.  

While in an Atlas beating mood I examined the Gunderson maxi set at the March Meet, very thick brake piping that is inferior to that found on the excellent Gunderson Twin Stack sets. I mentioned this to Mr Kimble who replied to the effect that what you see here is what you are going to get, i.e. that it was the production set. At least the pipework can be replaced with wire

I really want Atlas to get it right, first time, so I can buy the product. 

All the above is, of course, my humble opinion.

n.

Limey posted:

 I mentioned this to Mr Kimble who replied to the effect that what you see here is what you are going to get,

Sorry to hear attitudes haven't changed despite personnel changes over the years.

Swafford posted:

Good Day Mr. Mann, How about presenting 21st Century Auto Racks? I'd be a buyer for 24 of these. 12 BNSF and 12 CSX..........

Suggest that you contact Scott directly and contractually agree to that purchase up front so that he can count on 24 units being sold up front (at a price yet tbd) as a starting point accruing other buyers making reservations. 

Holy Mackerel, two dozen of such models from any supplier would be a serious chunk of hobby budget indeed. Good luck.

Flanger:

I've got 12 CSX 5161s on order from Atlas,but am wondering how many years I'll have wait to get them. My widow may receive them instead.

Al Hummel

ecd15 posted:

Limey posted:

 I mentioned this to Mr Kimble who replied to the effect that what you see here is what you are going to get,

Sorry to hear attitudes haven't changed despite personnel changes over the years.

Atlas is a small and thinly capitalized family business.

Playing with big boys is costly and risky and especially so when adding in the offshore component. 

They were success in the past partnering with someone else on the complicated things (Atlas/RoCo) and doing the simple onshore in Hillside.

It seems that they need to revisit this strategy. 

I would be in for the automax demonstrator car. There are fold out plans in MR.

Limey posted:

Dick - you are missing the point I think, the Weaver car must be at least 20yrs old thereabouts so effectively Atlas have not take the hobby any further forward with the introduction of their 'interpretation'  - I am being polite here, of the PS4750 car.

I have Atlas cars that have been superbly executed in plastic, the Berwick car for instance, so it was a missed opportunity by Atlas to raise the bar with this product. If Atlas had released this to the public in Europe or Japan this product would not have sold.  

While in an Atlas beating mood I examined the Gunderson maxi set at the March Meet, very thick brake piping that is inferior to that found on the excellent Gunderson Twin Stack sets. I mentioned this to Mr Kimble who replied to the effect that what you see here is what you are going to get, i.e. that it was the production set. At least the pipework can be replaced with wire

I really want Atlas to get it right, first time, so I can buy the product. 

All the above is, of course, my humble opinion.

n.

 

 

The preproduction samples are exactly what you will get as the finished product , they are representative of what the created tooling will produce, obviously not every model built in the Masterline series will have the level of detailing found in the Trinity series just as some Trainman cars have more to "scale"details than others. I am sure there are many factors that drive the dollar amount invested on each project, personally I am all for a well detailed car or engines and I believe Atlas for the most part does a much better job than its much larger competitors in that regard [don't shoot the messenger] JMO

Alan Hummel posted:

Flanger:

I've got 12 CSX 5161s on order from Atlas,but am wondering how many years I'll have wait to get them. My widow may receive them instead.

Al Hummel

Actually Atlas has been pretty much on track in their deliveries of cars the last 2 years or so, aside from the CZ series now engines thats a whole different story that is still not resolved. just saying!

flanger posted:

Holy Mackerel, two dozen of such models from any supplier would be a serious chunk of hobby budget indeed. Good luck.

For some....no problem!....

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

I would be in for the automax demonstrator car. There are fold out plans in MR.

Which issue? I can't find it in a search?

http://mrr.trains.com/issues/2016/june-2016

dkdkrd posted:

flanger posted:

Holy Mackerel, two dozen of such models from any supplier would be a serious chunk of hobby budget indeed. Good luck.

For some....no problem!....

Well, folks continually post up "Please make me a..........." and maybe they just need to put their money where their mouth is (not burn it...), and go directly to a potential importer and make a real commitment.  Other option is to DIY.

mwb posted

Well, folks continually post up "Please make me a..........." and maybe they just need to put their money where their mouth is (not burn it...), and go directly to a potential importer and make a real commitment.  Other option is to DIY.

Martin,

I had a conversation with a fellow at the York show who was rather insistent that Sunset should make a specific product, While I certainly appreciate folks saying what they would like to see produced this one fellow was quite insistent that Sunset was missing the boat on his suggestion - a suggestion that I thought would not be profitable for Scott Mann.

I did offer to give him the name, e-mail, and other pertinent information of a builder so he could pursue the project and make loads of money. He declined.

Input from customers and potential customers is very valuable, and I don't mean to dismiss it. After all, that's why we are at the shows. But, part (most?) of my job is to determine what is worthwhile to pursue for Scott.

rheil posted:

mwb posted

Well, folks continually post up "Please make me a..........." and maybe they just need to put their money where their mouth is (not burn it...), and go directly to a potential importer and make a real commitment.  Other option is to DIY.

Martin,

I had a conversation with a fellow at the York show who was rather insistent that Sunset should make a specific product, While I certainly appreciate folks saying what they would like to see produced this one fellow was quite insistent that Sunset was missing the boat on his suggestion - a suggestion that I thought would not be profitable for Scott Mann.

I did offer to give him the name, e-mail, and other pertinent information of a builder so he could pursue the project and make loads of money. He declined.

Input from customers and potential customers is very valuable, and I don't mean to dismiss it. After all, that's why we are at the shows. But, part (most?) of my job is to determine what is worthwhile to pursue for Scott.

Fully understand and agree with you.  In part why I suggested that if folks want something that they need to pry open their wallet, release the moths, and put their money where their mouths are....and make it worthwhile for an importer to pursue.  

I could give you my list of desired items, but I'd have buy 45 to get 50 made....and then I'd be stuck with the 40 extras.....which would be the same problem for Scott.  Tain't gonna' happen.  Reality is a bummer.

hibar posted:

The preproduction samples are exactly what you will get as the finished product , they are representative of what the created tooling will produce, obviously not every model built in the Masterline series will have the level of detailing found in the Trinity series just as some Trainman cars have more to "scale"details than others. I am sure there are many factors that drive the dollar amount invested on each project, personally I am all for a well detailed car or engines and I believe Atlas for the most part does a much better job than its much larger competitors in that regard [don't shoot the messenger] JMO

I agree with you 100% that Atlas products are generally superior to their competitors but the one competitor that I see migrating to being more-and-more Atlas Master-like on the modern era front is Lionel.  Their new Legacy SD40 is very, very close.  Lionel even went to the extent that they provided pilots that can be permanently fixed, scale coupler mounting pads,  and road-specific details (some pretty specific details that I’m not sure that Atlas would’ve even included).   The truck side frames are pretty nice on these models too.  I think the fuel tank and pilot area could’ve used a little more bling but otherwise, lots of attention to detail.   With the addition of the fixed pilot option to these large locomotives (requiring larger radius curves more inline with what 2-Railers are used to) , I think scale wheels is not that far away as Lionel is basically already there.  The 3RS guys are obviously having a definite influence on Lionel’s business direction.  Their turnaround time is not that bad either, especially for a brand new model and not just a respin, since Lionel seems to have some “factory horsepower” behind them.  Also worth noting is that these are built-to-order and the price was above a typical Atlas Master loco model at around $650 a pop but Lionel seems to have enough demand (they continue to offer more-and-more models in this high-end 3RS Legacy category) and since they are built-to-order, then Lionel knows everyone is sold before it leaves the factory.  If Lionel does cross the great divide and enters full-on into the 2-Rail market, then this could definitely spur on some 2-rail growth because (a) Atlas now has some true competition on the modern era front (MTH is still not up to Atlas Master level) and (b) it will allow Atlas to justify investing in new tooling because of this new “accepted” price point.  I believe a definite inflection in modern 2-Rail O scale will occur if Lionel takes that next teeny tiny step over to the “dark side” . 

Scott Kay

Austin, TX

Glad you like the Lionel products, I am a longtime 2 railer so their engines are not for me I do have some converted HuskyStacks  [I know their 48' containers are 1/2 inch short and I just use them for background display] bear in mind both Lionel and MTH are much larger MFGs/importers than Atlas and for the most part their market is 3 rail.JMO

Athearn made the Gunderson Greenbrier articulated AUTO-MAX in N Scale and HO Scale. Perhaps they can make them in O scale.

Andrew

falconservice posted:

Athearn made the Gunderson Greenbrier articulated AUTO-MAX in N Scale and HO Scale. Perhaps they can make them in O scale.

Andrew

How many decades ago did Athearn get out of O scale?

Limey posted:

Dick - you are missing the point I think, the Weaver car must be at least 20yrs old thereabouts so effectively Atlas have not take the hobby any further forward with the introduction of their 'interpretation'  - I am being polite here, of the PS4750 car.

I have Atlas cars that have been superbly executed in plastic, the Berwick car for instance, so it was a missed opportunity by Atlas to raise the bar with this product. If Atlas had released this to the public in Europe or Japan this product would not have sold.  

While in an Atlas beating mood I examined the Gunderson maxi set at the March Meet, very thick brake piping that is inferior to that found on the excellent Gunderson Twin Stack sets. I mentioned this to Mr Kimble who replied to the effect that what you see here is what you are going to get, i.e. that it was the production set. At least the pipework can be replaced with wire

I really want Atlas to get it right, first time, so I can buy the product. 

All the above is, of course, my humble opinion.

n.

 

 

Just curious about the new Gunderson Maxi sets, since you had an opportunity to examine these cars how do they compare detail wise to the Lionel diecast Gunderson cars [I personally think these are very well detailed despite the shortened 48' containers],mine have been 2 railed with KDs and Atlas containers the Lionel containers make good background storage ? Most of the advertising pics for the Atlas cars do not appear to show too much close up so its hard to gauge.

hibar posted:

Limey posted:

Dick - you are missing the point I think, the Weaver car must be at least 20yrs old thereabouts so effectively Atlas have not take the hobby any further forward with the introduction of their 'interpretation'  - I am being polite here, of the PS4750 car.

I have Atlas cars that have been superbly executed in plastic, the Berwick car for instance, so it was a missed opportunity by Atlas to raise the bar with this product. If Atlas had released this to the public in Europe or Japan this product would not have sold.  

While in an Atlas beating mood I examined the Gunderson maxi set at the March Meet, very thick brake piping that is inferior to that found on the excellent Gunderson Twin Stack sets. I mentioned this to Mr Kimble who replied to the effect that what you see here is what you are going to get, i.e. that it was the production set. At least the pipework can be replaced with wire

I really want Atlas to get it right, first time, so I can buy the product. 

All the above is, of course, my humble opinion.

n.

 

 

Just curious about the new Gunderson Maxi sets, since you had an opportunity to examine these cars how do they compare detail wise to the Lionel diecast Gunderson cars [I personally think these are very well detailed despite the shortened 48' containers],mine have been 2 railed with KDs and Atlas containers the Lionel containers make good background storage ? Most of the advertising pics for the Atlas cars do not appear to show too much close up so its hard to gauge.

Here are some close-up photos of the upcoming Atlas-O Maxi-IV intermodal car set, taken at last month’s Chicago O-Scale meet. I have 5 of the Lionel cars & like the details on them. Even though they are marginally shorter, I still like the Lionel Husky cars more than the MTH models. Since Atlas-O has not delivered their models yet, I am not sure if it is possible to compare an Atlas-O pre-production sample to Lionel cars that have already been offered & delivered over multiple catalogs.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

The displayed samples are produced from the finished tooling for the production run [what you see is what you will get] if there were any issues they were already addressed so the samples represent the finished product.just sayimg!

Hibar,

I didn’t know that the Atlas-O models were made from production tooling. Regarding the level of detail, I got to appreciate the details on Lionel Husky stacks since I had a chance to hold & see them almost every day for the last 2 years. I also discovered most of the details on these cars when I created a simple 3-D CAD model when I documented the conversion to 2-rail on these forums. But I only had a minute to talk to Jerry Kimble at the Chicago meet & take those photographs. Also since the tables had the “Do not touch” signs I couldn’t appreciate the details on the Atlas-O Maxi-Stack IV stacks. So I am going to wait until I own these cars before deciding if they have more details than the Lionel cars.

Though the Atlas-O & Lionel models are models of intermodal well cars, made by the same manufacturer in Oregon, Greenbrier Companies, they are of different models. The Lionel car is supposed to be the model of an out-of-production, Husky All-Purpose Double-Stack, single-unit well car that was supposed to hold a 48’ container in the lower level. The openings in the floor also allows up to a 48’ truck-trailer to be mounted in the well & there are fifth-wheel plates, that pivot on trunnions at both ends, all captured in the Lionel model. The current prototype of this Husky car is supposed to hold 53’ containers or 53’ truck trailers.

The Atlas-O model is a current-production, Maxi-Stack IV, permanently coupled 3-car set that is supposed to hold up to a 53’ intermodal container in lower position but there are no fifth-wheel plates & so no provisions for mounting trailers. The Atlas-O models from the Chicago meet seemed to confirm that. I couldn’t see the floor of the Atlas-O model but from the seeing online photos of hobos riding in the prototype Maxi-Stack cars, it seems that the floor has larger openings, with beams connecting the sides, not a plate as in the case of the Husky cars.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

mwb posted:

rheil posted:

mwb posted

Well, folks continually post up "Please make me a..........." and maybe they just need to put their money where their mouth is (not burn it...), and go directly to a potential importer and make a real commitment.  Other option is to DIY.

Martin,

I had a conversation with a fellow at the York show who was rather insistent that Sunset should make a specific product, While I certainly appreciate folks saying what they would like to see produced this one fellow was quite insistent that Sunset was missing the boat on his suggestion - a suggestion that I thought would not be profitable for Scott Mann.

I did offer to give him the name, e-mail, and other pertinent information of a builder so he could pursue the project and make loads of money. He declined.

Input from customers and potential customers is very valuable, and I don't mean to dismiss it. After all, that's why we are at the shows. But, part (most?) of my job is to determine what is worthwhile to pursue for Scott.

Fully understand and agree with you.  In part why I suggested that if folks want something that they need to pry open their wallet, release the moths, and put their money where their mouths are....and make it worthwhile for an importer to pursue.  

I could give you my list of desired items, but I'd have buy 45 to get 50 made....and then I'd be stuck with the 40 extras.....which would be the same problem for Scott.  Tain't gonna' happen.  Reality is a bummer.

Aint' it the truth?!

And this 'Why don't they make this?  Why don't they tool that?  Why don't they just lower their prices?  Why don't they just make veeblefetzers using the new 4D Gzornenplatz technique/process/machine?, Why can't they simply understand?'?????....it'll go on and on and on, ad infinauseum.

That's because NO one....not the K-12 'educators' or the current manufacturers under siege...will pause to educate those that have absolutely no idea what costs, hurdles, regulations, capital, etc., etc. are required to make someone's fantasy a reality.   AND.....at a (Gasp!  Wheeze!  MEDIC!) profit  that justifies the effort...beyond hobby-altruism (). 

'What does it take to make your veeblefetzer in today's world?'...   It seems like such a simple question.....too simple for even a cursory explanation. 

However, I've waited for decades, now, for a current/retiring/past hobby manufacturer to pen and publish an answer to this vexing, enigmatic, and argumentative question for the ignorant, naive, demanding public.  The K-12 folks will never do it....it's of no pertinence to their core agenda.  You'll have to major in a Business topic to find such answers at the college level.   Besides, the 'School of Hard Knocks' is better experienced to deal with the subject.

And, I daresay that there's nothing competitively revealing about a basic review of the subject.  It's a fairly common boat that all manufacturers have to stay afloat in.  It's just not well understood.  True competitive advantages are not expected to be shared, for Pete's sake! 

It's not 'spooky'.   If anything, it seems 'Spock-y'..."It's only logical"!

Then again, maybe those under assault thrive on the attention. 

So much for the bloviation. 

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

KD

naveenrajan posted:

Hibar,

I didn’t know that the Atlas-O models were made from production tooling. Regarding the level of detail, I got to appreciate the details on Lionel Husky stacks since I had a chance to hold & see them almost every day for the last 2 years. I also discovered most of the details on these cars when I created a simple 3-D CAD model when I documented the conversion to 2-rail on these forums. But I only had a minute to talk to Jerry Kimble at the Chicago meet & take those photographs. Also since the tables had the “Do not touch” signs I couldn’t appreciate the details on the Atlas-O Maxi-Stack IV stacks. So I am going to wait until I own these cars before deciding if they have more details than the Lionel cars.

Though the Atlas-O & Lionel models are models of intermodal well cars, made by the same manufacturer in Oregon, Greenbrier Companies, they are of different models. The Lionel car is supposed to be the model of an out-of-production, Husky All-Purpose Double-Stack, single-unit well car that was supposed to hold a 48’ container in the lower level. The openings in the floor also allows up to a 48’ truck-trailer to be mounted in the well & there are fifth-wheel plates, that pivot on trunnions at both ends, all captured in the Lionel model. The current prototype of this Husky car is supposed to hold 53’ containers or 53’ truck trailers.

The Atlas-O model is a current-production, Maxi-Stack IV, permanently coupled 3-car set that is supposed to hold up to a 53’ intermodal container in lower position but there are no fifth-wheel plates & so no provisions for mounting trailers. The Atlas-O models from the Chicago meet seemed to confirm that. I couldn’t see the floor of the Atlas-O model but from the seeing online photos of hobos riding in the prototype Maxi-Stack cars, it seems that the floor has larger openings, with beams connecting the sides, not a plate as in the case of the Husky cars.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

With the exception of the foreshortened bulkheads to accommodate 3 rail lg flange trucks on tight curves [hence the 1/2" short containers Lionel supplied with these cars] the cars are accurate length and can carry 53' trailers this was a common practice on the CSX river division [Selkirk to NBergen, Oak Island and Port Newark/Elizabeth a number of years back.