Graffiti--a question to ponder

Different people just have different tolerances for depicting the illegal, the immoral, or just the plain tasteless on their layouts. It doesn't make any one of them more righteous or more immoral than the other.

 

What we depict on our layouts may say something about our approach to modeling, but it doesn't necessarily indicate our moral character or mental stability. In fact, if a psychiatrist who didn't understand modeling got wind of some of the scenes on my layout, he'd have me on the couch for a very extended session.

 

Remember even John Allen had a scene on his layout where the local townfolk lynched the diesel salesman when he came to town. On how many levels is that questionable?!! 

 

Jim

 

 

 

All I'm saying is that graffiti has been around on rolling stock for a long time. And, even if people don't like it, it's an ingrained part of many cultural aspects and has even been romanticized in many movies. I don't have any graffiti on my layout, but whenever I see someone that does, it instills a sense of realism. Like it or not, it has always been a facet of urban life.

If my kids were adults, I would still not want that stuff on my layout. I'm not knocking or judging those who do model such things, but that stuff just isn't going to find a place on my train table. 

Those from NYC should recognize the graffiti building; the building is provided for those who which to express their graffiti art.

 

I'm not sure that modeling something is necessarily an endorsement of it.  Art does imitate life, and many layouts are very artistic, so depending on what is being modeled and when, graffiti on a layout could be modeling real life.

 

Likewise, having a 'seedy' side of the tracks, would also be art in my opinion.

 

Regarding other vises, I will confess to having a "National Bo" reefer on my layout! Not really a big fan of this particular 'beverage', but living near Baltimore and modeling the B&O, it seems appropriate.

 

Like any other part of this hobby, there is no right or wrong, and folks should do (or not do) what they wish to their own layouts.

 

Jim

 

On my layout, taggers are caught by the RR police and immediately run out of town after they've been made to clean up their mess.

 

And I have a couple of Coors reefers, which have a prototype and incidentally, Coors is my summer beverage of choice.

Isnt model railroading about creating accurate and realistic railroad operations in small scale? However you feel about graffiti, it is real and it happens everyday. It is a part of railroad operations, every act of vandalism in some way impacts, impedes, and disrupts everyday railroad operations. If ones goal was realistic railroad operations in small scale then the graffiti needs to be taken into consideration. Vandals trespassing on railroad property to "tag" railroad equipment represent a very real disruption to railroad operations. What if one of these vandals falls off a freight car and gets hit by a train? Does the chaos and cleanup that follows not represent a real operation performed by the railroad? What about the resources expended by the railroad in money and manpower to run the trespassers of the property, representing delays and lost revenue. Whether we like it or not if one wants to accurately and realistically model true railroad operations then one needs to model the graffiti and the vandals doing it.

Model railroading is about modelling what you want to model. I'm not going to re-create stupid ugly graffiti in the name of "realism". My model railroads represent an ideal world with clean trains and minimal weathering and no trash in the streets.

Not only is model railroading about what you want to model but accuracy can also excluede graffiti.  I model the early 1950's and...frankly...there was not much graffiti.

I don't like graffiti either.  In fact, I've seen some very inappropriate images on some freight cars.  I never have understood the logic behind a gang member tagging a covered hopper to mark territory.  It's not going to stay there!

 

Anyway, I might model some of the more run-down side of town, but there won't be any graffiti or other illegal or immoral scenes on my layout.  Not with the Dark Knight roaming the streets .

 

Aaron

TO SAY MODELING GRAFFITI  IS ENDORSING IT,IS LIKE SAYING MOVIES LIKE THE CHAIN SAW MASSACRE IS ENDORSING MURDER.ITS ALL JUST ENTERTAINMENT.TO EACH HIS OWN.TO MODEL TRAINS IN THE YEARS OF 1980S AND ABOVE WITHOUT GRAFFITI IS JUST MODELING FANTASY.NOT REALITY.

It is safe to say that everybody in the railroad form the president and the shareholders right down to the coupler jockey working the hump yard do not like vandals or graffiti. But is has a very real and very significant impact on the railroads both financially and operationally. I hate riding the train through the yards and seeing all the nonsense painted on the cars but its real and its there. All im saying is that if one were seeking to accurately and realistically model a railroad and its operations than the vandals and the damage they do need to be taken into account.

Playing the devil's advocate here on some of the responses (not that I have a problem doing that )

 

Maybe for some the question isn't so much about endorsing or promoting graffiti, but more about the perception of glorifying it?

 

Again, some will model it as a slice of life on their layouts, in addition to or in exclusion of other elements including brothels, bank robberies, etc.  Others may include or exclude all of those elements.

 

I still contend that for some, modelling something like a bank robbery or call girls at the entrance to a casino may lend themselves to more tongue-in-cheek, amusing type of motifs than graffiti could, although one exception that comes to mind might be a motif of someone tagging something while a cop or junkyard dog is sneaking up behind him ready to give him his own reward for his efforts. 

If you think that modeling graffiti endorses or glorifies it, sit down, because someone has to tell you...  YOU'RE FREAKIN' NUTS.

 

If someone chooses to model the real world, specifically present day railroading, then to ignore graffiti is just plain silly.   You can do what you want, it's your railroad, but to single out graffiti makes no sense.  I hope you don't model dirt or rust, either, in your perfect world.

 

If there's one thing I can be sure of, I would bet it all that NO GRAFFITI ARTIST IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD has ever considered not doing graffiti, but then say it on a model train and that changed their mind.

Guys, Let me interject something that may already have been interjected. Graffiti is a form of labeling ugly to most but useful to others. It is a fact of life, you can model it as you like on your own layout, after all, IT IS YOUR INDIVIDUAL LAYOUT! As such graffiti has been around for a long, long time most commonly it was used by hobos wishing to communicate with other Hobo's on Water Towers. It was and still is used as a means of communication between passing travelers of the hobo kind and more modern gangs use it to mark their territory. My point is use it or not depending on you as individual, it is your layout, this is not Russia, this is America! Nobody has the right to tell you what to do on your layout, Guys, this is fantasy, it portrays the best memories, you are free to do as you wish! Mike Maurice If there is room on my layout, only if there is room, I will have room for communication between Hobo's! There are 5 hobo camps on my layout!

For all you BOs

 

 

Shack would not be happy!

Speaking of graffiti does anyone remember this scene from the movie Falling Down?

Falling Down

 

Jerry

 

I wouldn't call it silly. 

 

It's a matter of taste, preference and compromise. 

 

Model Railroading consists of many compromises.  Compression and omission are just two of them.  Nobody can model the real world with 100% accuracy.  At best, they can capture the "flavor."

 

I'm sure there are many fine model railroads out there that omit the legacy of the taggers.

 

Rusty

 

 

As in EMPIRER OF THE NORTH?

Speathing of hobo's, what about their sysbol system?

 

 

But considering TODAY:  To get to that car or whatever WITHOUT PERMISSION is illegal.  Believe it or not, it is legal to own something!  When people have no respect for something that is not his or hers, our legal and cultural systems are slipping to anachy!  And if he or she gets hurt while doing that illegal thing, who gets the lawsuit!

There have been some very thoughtful responses to my query but I believe these two, in particular, address the issue:

 

 

Originally Posted by baltimoretrainworks:

 

“Interesting post, I guess it's because graffiti is out there for all of us to see in good areas and bad areas. Most of us don't on a regular basis come across members of the oldest profession or have been in a bank during a hold up so it's more of a problem that really doesn't affect us. Graffiti is more of an in your face kind of thing…”

 

Originally Posted by John Korling:

 

“…I would suppose that it all boils down to personal thresholds of what they find acceptable to represent on their layouts.   Perhaps some people find that a scene depicting a brothel is more subtle and tongue-in-cheek compared to strings of tagged boxcars or entire building sides depicting graffiti which in itself tends to be more widespread in the real world and therefore more pronounced…”

 

I hadn’t considered  that graffiti is so real world blatant compared to other illegal or immoral activities. Nor had I taken into account that graffiti doesn’t handily present itself to a tongue in cheek depiction. This leads me to think that most of the negative forum response is more of a knee-jerk reaction to real life than anything else.

People respond negatively to graffiti because they find it offensive. 

I never implied otherwise. I thought my entire post was abundantly clear. Let me rephrase the last sentence of my conclusion:

 

This leads me to think that most of the negative forum response is more of a knee-jerk reaction based upon their real life revulsion than anything else.

I think it comes down to some people like to model the world as it is and others like to create a little world as they wont it to be.

One vignette is an expression of what the builder sees and the other is an escape from lifes frustrations. In either mode it's all cool with me, as long as we are having fun. 

Hi Dennis,
I think that you got it right.
Most negative responses seem to be reactions to graffiti in real life.
No one  really answered or addreesed the question about why people react do strongly about modeling it.
I do not think many people are cognitive enough to really delve into the "why's" of there beliefs. They just think they are right and dam those who don't.

I think that my response to real graffiti is the sense of violation and the feelings of fear that arise when society does not seem to have my old school values of respecting others property. And the realization that I am not going to change it.
Heck, my  little kids "graffiti" my house with crayons and I have that intense feeling of anger and frustration. But I am also aware that the "crime" is in no way as horrible as my "negative" reaction would have me initially believe.


Also some model reality like the 3Rail guys and others create a fantasy world they can control and escape to.

For my layout, frat house tagging on bridges is appropriate, railroad police would beat you up (a crime in itself) if you tried messing with their freight cars.
Fred

Come on Fred, it's not all that complicated. What we are talking about is a bunch of over age kids scribbling on other peoples property.

 

It's natural for children to do it because it's apart of mental development. When young men reach the age of reason their perspective should of advanced far beyond simply making people upset. I think this arrested development is mostly due to these young men not having the adult direction you provided your kids.

 

What ever happened to us as a culture where using trash mouth in songs thatdisrespect woman and slopping paint on someone elses property is confused with art.

I live in Philadelphia and our city is full a beautiful wall art that I think is wonderful. But those people who did that work are trained artist who spent years developing their craft before showing it off.

 

Come on there is nothing deep about this, just a bunch of out of control narcissist trying to impress other juveniles with their daring.

 

Also, I would venture to guess that most people know exactly  why they feel the way they do, we are not a bunch of children. They just don't wont to waste their time talking to us about it.

 

Our big problem as a people is that we no longer have clear lines of right and wrong. Maybe we over think everything, we tend to feel, not think.

 

The whole thing is very basic to peoples mental state of growth. Like I said above this is nothing new or complicated, it's been going on for mellennia. Society must have rules or there is no structure, no structure and we as a people drift apart thus slipping into the status of a foot note in history just like the Romans.

 

That is one big reason why most people hate graffiti, we see it as an assult on our value system. To us it's not art, it is vandalism and little more.

 

 

Hi GG1,
I thought I said that.
What are you saying that is different?

Prostition is an assault on some people's sense of morality.
And I also had a 64Mustang that some kid tried to steal.
I felt at the time, if we can hang horse thieves, why not car theives.

So "why" do you response so "strongly"
"Negatively" is not correct because it is a judgement.
That is what the question was. Because others here also do not have that response and I would hope they are also contributing members of our society.

It seems that the general consensus is...

 

graffiti = bad

prostitution = good

Come on there is nothing deep about this, just a bunch of out of control narcissist trying to impress other juveniles with their daring.

That's quite the "generalization" I think they said the same thing about Elvis and Rock and Roll.

Also, I would venture to guess that most people know exactly  why they feel the way they do, we are not a bunch of children. They just don't wont to waste their time talking to us about it.
Us trains guys don't want to waste to much time talking about "feelings"

Our big problem as a people is that we no longer have clear lines of right and wrong. Maybe we over think everything, we tend to feel, not think.

Is the problem " thinking too much" feeling too much" or "not thinking enough"

Is it acceptable to model Hobos?

Hobos were also considered to be vandals and trespassers. 

Maybe part of it is also:

 

graffiti = bad

prostitution = naughty  

 

You know, a Freudian thing. 

 

I wonder if part of the overall perception also stems from the fact that when modelling a scene that suggests prostitution, there's typically no definite end result being depicted.   There's an actual air of intrigue or mystique if you will.  If you look at typical layout scenes, it's virtually always the street walker standing at a corner or leaning against a lamppost/wall, sometimes a prospective client is standing next to her, sometimes  not.  You don't typically see scenes where she & the client are walking to the nearest Motel 6 with cash in her hands or a scene where they're actively consummating the business arrangement.  Ultimately a choice exists between the client and the prostitute; either could say no and part ways, like with all types of solicitation.  The scene is always suggesting more than one outcome.

 

With graffiti, hobo traditions aside, the general perception may be that there's really no intrigue or mystique associated with it.  It's just, well... vandalism.  No solicitation involved, it's always a done deal.  A brick wall or a boxcar the tagger or vandal hits has no say in the matter & can't walk away from it.  The deed is done so to speak. 

 

Overly existential perhaps, just throwing that out there as a possible rationale that some people may hold when it comes to depicting such scenes on their layouts.

I grew up across the street from a large classification yard., during the 40's

Hobos would mark the curb of homes, who might provide water, cup of coffee, soup etc  Never heard anyone speak negative of them.

 

Cannot believe everything you read and then paint a broad picture.

That's a terrific looking scene Frank, never get tired of looking at it.

 

I think that picture more can be shown as an interesting example of subtlety at work.  The perception of it being a brothel, while there, doesn't exactly shout out when you take in the overall vignette.   It could be argued that if one or both of those two buildings' walls got visibly tagged/covered in graffiti then that form of illegal activity would stand out more in the scene, and perhaps result in more negative feelings from a cross-section of viewers.

Hi Fred, I threw that post together on a break at work and before I got half way done there was about five things that hit the proverbial fan at one time. So I committed the cardinal sin of posting, typing to get my thoughts out with out spending enough time thinking about how to word it.

 

I did not mean to sound negative or cross with you I was just talking as if you where in the room with me but unfortunately there was no voice inflections or body languish to come across the net.  I could of worded it better, but in my defense I'm the guy who wrote "thatdisrespect". I would say such typing is undeniable proof that I was rushing my thoughts. 

 

Bottom line is, I don't like graffiti. But I have no problem with it being on a private display, or on a model.  I look at it as a reflection of our baser emotions and ego. It has always been with us and probably always will.

 It cannot be compared to Elvis, no one ever said the El was not talented. It was his hips that got our parents upset not his work.

 

Well I'm sorry if I made you uncomfortable I don't come on these pages to do that to anyone. It's just that I really don't like graffiti.

Look...here is the bottom line.  A lot of the modelers on this forum are fanatical in being "prototypical" to extent of weathering their trains and track.  As one poster pointed out, I defy you to witness a modern train going by today that DOESN'T have graffiti on it. I see no problem with adding a couple cars to a consist to add to that realism: as a matter of fact, I think it really adds to model train experience if you don't over do it!

I have this one.

Looks more like Lionel propaganda than graffiti.

I don't know why anyone who has a steam locomotive on their layout would also have graffiti. It was not at all common during the '50s or before. Perhaps you would see a "John loves Mary" or "Go Yankees" on a railroad overpass.

 

My layout is my memory of the 1950s...and yes, it is selective. I do not have people in "Iron Lungs" (polio), for instance. Yet, I don't re-write history (like some do today)...therefore, black people are porters, not passengers, on my Broadway Limited. Also, none of my cars need washing, and streets are clean.

 

As an aside, I used to think graffiti was a "American thing", and I was surprised to find it in Warsaw, Rome, Paris, Prague, etc., etc.

Hi GG1,
No offense taken.
I also detest  real graffiti.
First time I saw it was on houses in La in the 80's.
It was gang tagging and I was incensed with the idea that the homeowners life could be in jeopardy if he removed it.
Next time I saw it was on a train ride out to Long Island.
Every single overpass was covered in it.

My gut reaction was that surely  the locals would not do this. What kind of low down scum would waste their  time.

Your post was insightful because you also have a strong reaction.
But I have slowly come to realize that when something triggers a such a powerful response there is much more "baggage" behind it.
I am not fond of murder but see it "modeled" on TV all the time and it does not bother me.  I also detest car thieves but do not react when it happens on TV.

But I also believe it is a lot more complicated and that most people do not have a clue why they feel things or what really motivates any artists. (Certain extremely talented modelers included)
And to certain religious leaders, Elvis and his cohorts were poisoning the minds of the  youth, which to some parents is considered worse than defacing property.

And also a fan of Elvis, but it would take more than this forum to debate the artistic value of his work and compare it to some of the great graffiti artists. ( not taggers)

Fred