Graffiti--a question to ponder

Interesting post, I guess it's because graffiti is out there for all of us to see in good areas and bad areas. Most of us don't on a regular basis come across members of the oldest profession or have been in a bank during a hold up so it's more of a problem that really doesn't affect us. Graffiti is more of an in your face kind of thing, done more to let someone know that even tho this belongs to someone else I'm laying claim to it and there's nothing you can do to stop me. And the more we become outraged at a particular individuals "art" the more his street cred goes up and the cycle continues. 

Jerry

I can understand that people do not want to support graffiti. Part of the reason behind graffiti is that I have heard from the local sheriff's office that graffiti is similar to a dog peeing on something, they are marking their turf so to speak. Maybe that's why people find it so disgusting.

Also I don't support having trashy scenes on my layout, maybe a junkyard, but not Joe's bar & grill or Wicked Wanda's.

Would you want your child to see the bad side of town? I know that I don't want my child to see the trashy part of town.

Lee Fritz

The setting for my layout is 1950; the last years of steam, the era of 1st generation diesels.  Buildings, signs, automobiles and trucks, the way people are dressed, are all planned and working towards this 1950 image.  (Not "the 1950's"; just 1950)

In those days, there was no word: "graffiti" and people just didn't do it.  Maybe I'm a bit corny, but there will be no noticeable graffiti on my layout.  Maybe that was because there were no aerosol paint spray cans, or whatever the reason.  The most noticeable graffiti was an "JIM loves SUE" carved in a heart on a tree.

Paul Fischer

Dennis, this is a liitle off point but I have actually spoken to a few graffiti "artists" about what they do and in their minds what they are doing is not vandalism at all but art. There is a group on the east coast actually seeking to protect the rights of some of these "works of art". While I recognize the talent of some of the graffiti "artists" I do not recognize the medium they choose to put their work on which therefor makes them vandals. It is puzzling to me how a person can believe that painting your name on somebody else s property is art. I have some graffiti cars on my layout and will get a few more. Unfortunate since the railroads cut back on the number of railroad cops patrolling the property there are far to many of cars that with graffiti to not represent on a layout.

FYI: The word "graffiti" derives from the original Latin and such "visual expression" has been around for millenia. The very ancient cave paintings could be considered a form of this artistic expression.

PS: I personally abhor graffiti on railroad cars or other public structures. It IS vandalism!

There is nothing to ponder, it is illegal, it is not art, it is destruction of private property and who ever does it should be jailed and fined. 

The fact of the matter is graffiti is out there in the real world, though most of us would prefer not to see it. If you are modeling an era where it is prevalent, then some layout builders, wanting to depict the "real world", will include it. Some of the members of this Forum have posted pictures of their creations of graffiti that look very real, which I am sure was their intent for creating it in the first place. To these individuals who create this form of art, I really don't think this has any negative impact to encourage those who break the law and deface other peoples' property.

Personally, I do not like it in the real world or in modeling. Just my opinion.

i say fight fire with fire...

if i lived trackside, i'd invest in a high powered paintball gun and as tagged cars rolled by, i'd let fly.

Unfortunately this is just not true.  Graffiti has been with us for millennia and will always be with us.  Maybe with spray paint, giant sharpies, etc. and its acceptance in some circles as art it's bigger and louder than before but to say people didn't do it is a little naïve.  A person's decision to include or not include graffiti on their layout is just that...a personal decision.  I can't believe adding graffiti to a layout would encourage anyone. 

The word graffiti go back to at least the 1850s:

graffiti (n.) 1851, for ancient wall inscriptions found in the ruins of Pompeii, from Italian graffiti, plural of graffito "a scribbling," a diminutive formation from graffio "a scratch or scribble," from graffiare "to scribble," ultimately from Greek graphein "to scratch, draw, write" (see -graphy). Sense extended 1877 to recently made crude drawings and scribbling.

There's the famous Daniel Boone graffiti:

"One on a tree in present Washington County, Tennessee reads "D. Boon Cilled a. Bar [killed a bear] on [this] tree in the year 1760". A similar carving, preserved in the museum of the Filson Historical Society in Louisville, Kentucky, reads "D. Boon Kilt a Bar, 1803"

And Pompeii was full of graffiti.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/...-Pompeiis-Walls.html

Please read or reread my original post. You missed the point of my topic.

There are companies who produce anti-raffiti coatings for outdoor surfaces like concrete. Either the spraypaint balls up and runs off, or it can be easily hosed off.

You ought to see the howls of outrage from taggers when these companies post YouTube videos demonstrating their products. It brings a smile to the face

---PCJ

It maybe  illegal but it is still here.

Dennis, are you really expecting rational thought to prevail here?

I don't much care what an individual does on his or her own layout.  Every item on the thing can be tagged, as far as I am concerned.  I do know that I'll never glorify grafitti in the pages of the magazine, although an otherwise relevant photo of a tagged  structure or piece of rolling stock might appear from time to time.          

Good topic.  If you are going to model a railroad yard in the real world, graffiti on rolling stock would be part of it.  Same with a house of ill fame or anything else you wish to add.  It's your railroad.  Heck, mine has a used car salesman!

 Martin, I thought I would at least give it a shot.

Dennis B.

i read your post and I don't care what anybody does to their layout but my thoughts had to do in the real world of tagging. If they did it to their own property I would not care, live like a pig as far as I care. But I will not replicate it on my layout. 

MWB,

if you don't have something positive to add to the discussion please don't say it. 

It's my own little world and I don't have criminals or thugs.  As a matter of fact I have a few figures I obtained in sets of prisoners, a woman being mugged, and a duo of crooks in action up for sale on the bay as we speak because I don't want them on my layout!  Ha ha.  And as for graffiti, not in my town!  I guess, even though I'm only 38, I want to have a "Leave it to Beaver" world to escape to.

david1,

I'm not suggesting that anyone should endorse or condone graffiti in the real world or even model it on their layout. That is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

its not graffiti, its art!

I digress, but if it's been endorsed by the owner of the medium the graffiti is applied to, it's art.  There are numerous motifs on building sides where I live where "graffiti art" is commissioned and they do a very good job.

However, if it's been applied without the medium owner's consent, it's vandalism.  Is it still considered art?  Perhaps, but it's vandalism first and foremost; doesn't matter how good it looks.

I seriously doubt if Popi or others woke up one morning to find their vehicles, homes, or other personal property were tagged in the middle of the night that the first thing out of their mouths will be "It's art!" 

As to Dennis Brennan's original inquiry on graffiti and the inevitable comparison to prostitution or bank robbery motifs, I would suppose that it all boils down to personal thresholds of what they find acceptable to represent on their layouts.   Perhaps some people find that a scene depicting a brothel is more subtle and tongue-in-cheek compared to strings of tagged boxcars or entire building sides depicting graffiti which in itself tends to be more widespread in the real world and therefore more pronounced.  Just one possible rationale.  Certainly there are those that tolerate neither and therefore, none are depicted on their layouts, but I think it does go back to one's own personal comfort zone or threshold of just to what extent the less savory side of humanity they want to model.

I don't care what others do....or what the model manufactures do......but I personally dislike immensely GRAFFITI   on anything.  To me modeling it endorses it. Maybe it goes back to personal experiences.....my 66 Mustang 2+2 was tagged with spray cans and to me it was just plain destruction of someone else's property.  It's not OK because it's a 60 foot long box car.

To each his own. My little idealistic world I don;t have professional ladies, robbers or graffiti....it's my get away.

Wait....one Graffiti I do like.....

One of the projects I helped out on.....

You get extra credit for your optimism, Dennis.

One of my favorite parts of railfanning is looking at the more "monumental" examples

of graffitti. I like it, in a way. Covering up car data is an issue; giving a freight car

what my be its best paint job in 10 years, well, OK. Some of the work is fantastic.

So, graffitti in principal, fine. Covering up important data, wrong. If my RR were not 

set in 1950 (June 1st, actually), I'd have it here and there. I have put it on a later car or

two, for another setting.

I'm an old guy, too. Just not a traditional one.

Precisely the point I was making...

Personally, I don't like graffiti, but I don't see how one could model a modern urban setting without it!

Worse case of graffiti I've ever saw, was in Milan, Italy, about 7-8 years ago.  When I rode on one particular stretch of the subway on a Saturday, the entire subway car (including the inside!) was graffitied! Yikes!

I also don't honestly see how some folks might think that someone seeing graffiti on a model train car would influence them to do graffiti in real life. 

Jim

I don't model graffiti on my layout because I find it so revolting when I see it in real life. Because my kids are young, I don't model hookers or thieves, and none of the signage advertises alcoholic beverages, cigarettes or cigars.  

Some "graffiti" can be very neat or pretty, such as that made by Banksy.  But "tagging" is what we generally see on railcars and that is just the act of putting your name or "tag" on everything you can to make yourself famous in some sick way.  Having said that, all the railcar "graffiti" you see is usually considered tagging and not artistic.  But if Banksy or another famous artist did something truely artistic, then I might consider having it modeled on a railcar.  

I don't model it just because I don't like it.  But I have no problem with someone modeling it if they want.

Also, as I understand it, it is not that easy to model graffiti well.  I don't even think I'd take a stab at it.

So, if your children were adults, you wouldn't have a problem modeling hookers or thieves and having signs advertising vices. Again, I'm not making any value judgement. I'm just trying to clarify your statement.

Well he did say that he finds it revolting in real life, so it would stand to reason that he would not want to depict it on his layout at all, regardless of the age of his children.

Well I'm 35 and I'm not an adult

John, that may be what he meant but that's not actually what he said.

Me, too. It sends me into fits of existential angst.

Dennis I agree with your statement, on my RR as I like to say" Real is the deal" and model that to the best of my ability soooooo there is graffiti etc, I dare anybody in this day and age to capture on film a train passing by or in a RR yard, that isn't a gallery of social expression. As the years have passed in all our lives, graffiti has expanded from Don loves Deb(that's us in the avatar) in an alley to huge murals of social expression in urban and rural areas. Is it right to do on someone else s property? No!In our world, its an expression of what the modeler sees in the real world. Even the Homies that Jim P. and I use on our RR's are an image of some of the people we see in society today.

I don't think that some people quite understand that graffiti has a long cultural history. It was especially prominent and associated with the punk rock and hip hop movements of the 70s and 80s, and became a fixture in cities such as New York, Chicago, and London. You can say that it's illegal and promotes vandalism, but it could be just as culturally relevant on your layout as a postwar building. I also thinks it's ridiculous to say that having it modeled on your layout promotes it in any way.

Promotes it????  NO.....endorses it...YES......and it's ridiculous to think otherwise.

Lots of bad things have been going on longer than graffiti so are those things OK too???

Actually, I do understand that. Historically, graffiti has expressed protest against oppression, has given indications of safe havens (the ichthus during the persecution of Christians during the days of Roman Empire), has expressed grief over the loss of friends, and even patriotism. It has also conveyed hatred and personal harassment throughout history.

By the way, violence, chaos, self-destructive behavior, gang culture, and misogynistic behavior have also been closely associated with Punk Rock and Hip Hop.

However, tagging is a bit different as it seems to signify an extreme level of narcissism ("hey I'm everywhere") or marks gang territory -- neither of which I condone. Taggers have obliterated road signs. They have been shot at for tagging over someone else's tag (or shot at people tagging over theirs) often resulting in injury/death to innocent bystanders. I can't even count the number of cans of white spray paint I went through when I had a white vinyl fence up (I'd paint over a tag immediately). Needless to say, when I hear about a tagger falling off a bridge I don't have much to say other than "the idiot shouldn't have been up there in the first place."

I have friends who do put graffiti on their cars. Even The Apprentice did one to match a photo of a box car he had come across (his motivation was to see if he could duplicate it accurately, plus the name happened to be a variation of his own.) By the way, the car doesn't go out on the club layout. I have one that was part of a rolling stock exchange that has a signature on it from one of the participants (by mutual agreement).

The bottom line: To each his/her own, but I don't model graffiti. Personal choice.

Don't think it endorses it either. I have a church on my layout; am I endorsing going to church? No, I don't care if you go to church or not. A church is something that you see in everyday life, like graffiti. It's modeling realism.