Had to do it...

Sunrise:

 

Very nice!   Enjoy the set.

 

pat

if you're using them as navigation lights, shouldn't red be on the port side?

Discussions on this have been going on since the 20s. On the headlamp the red is on the right hand side of the light. I checked my super 381 and the red marker light is on the right hand side per the headlamp.

 

The red/green answer is not nautical. What it is I do not know.

Very nice! My wife would love the blue. Have fun with it!

Overland you're right, Lionel's use of the red and green marker lights is totally goofy.  Not prototypical, to say the least.  Lionel was evidently "inspired" by nautical lights, but didn't know or care enough to get it right.  A couple of books I've read note that Lionel "inexplicably" started using red and green marker lights, with no further elaboration.  Face it, they were just going for a lot of colored lights to make things flashier.

 

I can't stand it.  I either switch them out so they are nautically correct (red to port, green to starboard), or put two red on one end of the loco and two green on the other end. That solution actually helps with the PS2 engines, marking which is the front end of these bipolar engines which powers up first in PS2.

 

I think the lights look good. One of the biggest reasons I like the 408 is the lights. This is tinplate where very little is prototypical and shine and whimsy are the only order.The scale guy's can use the term "correct" if they wish.

I know two greens means one of a series of locos & cars considered one train, on a regular timed schedule. Two whites an unscheduled. Red for reverse travel. But before standardized, I think one of the railroads used a red lamp or flag to the outside rail if there were 2 or more parallel tracks. Along with green and white or yellow for regular scheduled trains(green) or extra runs(white/yellow)on the inside rail. Why? Don't know. And I cant remember for sure who used the red on front, but may have been PRR or Michigan Central (I was replacing PRR k-4 jewels, but researching early Mi.Cen. at the time). I remember running across this info while replacing missing post war k-4 marker jewels with correct colors, and then remembered one of my old locos had one red, one green both original. I always thought it was fanciful, or just a mistake, but that little side note proved to me Lionel was "right enough" to not be called "100% wrong". 

Chris, I agree with you completely, the more lights the better.  

 

I just like to have some kind of story, however whimsical, to answer the obvious question, "err... why are there nautical navigation lights on a locomotive?  And, uhh... why are they backwards?"  

 

Doesn't have to be 'correct', I agree, just not be completely ignorant.

My grandfather was president of Electric Boat Company (Elco) in the 1920's and 1930's, making wooden launches and cruisers in the same era as these trains, so there's an appreciation for a little of both traditions here.

 

Sunrise, getting back to your original post, that really is quite a color. Didn't know the 408 was ever made in turqoise blue, haven't seen it before.  Nice choice.

 

It would be interesting to know if Lionel had any rime or reason for the choice of the lighting. If I had to guess I would say probubly not. As far as the nautical aspect of the lighting I sould be taking notes from you guy's as my son is a US Sailer now and I might be tested on this.

I love the "carolina blue" paint scheme!

GO TARHEELS!!!!!!!!!!

 

God is a tarheel fan, thats why the sky

is tarheel blue!!

agreed.

 

i have a huge book of Erector set ads from the 1920's and on.  every once in a while, when looking through the pages, i am struck by what was considered "High Tech" in those early days.  motors and lights were magical things to kids.  many households did not even have electricity wired until the early 1930's.  if you notice, even "remote control" at the time merely meant you could command a switch to throw by simply connecting a wire...wow!  radio control?  ...maybe in Dick Tracy's world.

 

i also believe the lights on this locomotive were merely for the decorative aspect without much thought given to placement or function.

Geeeeeezzzzz.  You just can't get away from those scale folks...if its not rivets...it lights?   Actually, I was concerned as to whether those wheels were out of scale .  HA HA Thanks for the nice comments...I'm really enjoying this bad boy.

 

Thanks!

 

Sunrise

Navigation lights ? The smaller lights/flags on the front of an early loco are classification lights. On a car, or caboose they are marker lights. Whimsical as they may seem, incorrect color or not, those lights are definitely based in reality. Why so big? That's what was easily available for bulbs in the 30s and they were definitely not rivet counting on these. There were not really radios in use on trains until after WW2, they used flags by day, oil lights by night for train communication and route identification. The red/green combo info I have not been able to re-find, but I did find some hearsay info on markers, some a little different from standard lighting/flag use. Read down a few posts on this link if interested, otherwise scroll back to the top and bask in the beauty if this baby blue jewel again. http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=6436

You need to see it printed? A look at this may help convince some that front end lights, other than headlamp, are not just fantasy lights.

http://smrf.railfan.net/SMRF/s...earch/marker_lights/

Adriatic, thank you for posting the link, one post especially, maybe the one you were refering to, was quite good; I hope it's okay that I'm copying it below for everyone to read.

 

However, nothing in that thread or elsewhere explains this daft idea of one red and one green on the front and one red and one green on the rear.   The only remotely prototypical precedent is nautical, vessel underway shows bow lights, green to starboard and red to port, and single white light atop mast for sailing vessels or single white light at stern for power vessels.  

 

Lionel perversely inverts the red and green front lights, putting the red on the right (starboard).  It's just goofy, which is the fun of tinplate.  There's no justification in the world for it, it's just a fun idea for a lot of colored lights.

 

(post from adriatic's link follows. good information here, but note: only white or green, never both on the same train, and never green and red together, and never red on the front in any case

 

"As we pass farther in years from the classic method of train operation, where trains were superior to other trains by right, class or direction, we tend to lose sight of the finer points of terminology which were a matter of life or death to railroaders of forty or more years ago. 

"Classification lamps (and flags) were displayed at the front of a train, or on the smokebox front of the lead (or only) steam locomotive regardless of the way the locomotive faced. White flags (and lamps by night) indicated an extra train, and green flags (and lamps by night) indicated that the train was carrying signals for a following section. Those were not markers - they were termed signals, and the lamps that were used in their display were classification lamps. In some cases, signals were displayed at the rear of a train, but only in the instance were the locomotive was at the rear of the train, pushing, and running in reverse. Any train displaying signals, either as an extra train or for following sections, displayed them only at one location in the train. They were only WHITE or GREEN, and NEVER BOTH on the same train. 

"Markers, on the other hand, were only displayed at the rear of the train. They indicated that the entire train was present at or had passed a given point. Markers commonly, but not always, displayed red lights and/or red flags to the rear. This was vital, especially in the days before automatic air brakes, so that an opposing train would know that the train they were to meet had actually arrived in one piece, and there was not a severed rear end out there waiting for a collision. It also applied where a train was switching at a station - part of his train might be out past the station, and the opposing train had not complied fully with a meet until the markers had been seen. 

"Many railroads, notably the New York Central before 1956, had several different ways of displaying markers. On the high speed tracks of a four-track line, trains running with the current of traffic displayed red to the rear and yellow to the front and sides (the marker lamps extended out from the side of the caboose or rear passenger car). Trains on the slow speed (freight) tracks added a red lantern on the rear platform. Trains running agains the current of traffic displayed yellow to the rear on the side of the high speed track. Trains in the clear on a siding displayed yellow to the front, sides and rear. 

"The D&H used essentially the same scheme, but without the provision for slow speed tracks. Trains en-route to Canada displayed green on the marker lamps in place of yellow, to comply with Canadian operating rules. NYC did the same, across Ontario and into Quebec. 

"It was possible, in the case of a locomotive running backward light or at the rear of a train pushing cars, to have markers and classification lamps at the same location on the train. In that case, the classification lamps were high on the smoke box front, and the markers were down on the pilot beam. 

"Don't confuse markers with classification lamps. They were two entirely different things. Please help preserve the heritage by maintaining the correct terminology, even if the subject seems to be arcane."

All this light talk is hurting my head....

 

Sunrise

Why did Lionel not dress up the 408 with marker lights like the ones used in the 381 when they became available for production? They probably did not want to make another end punch stamp.

 

I think on a PS-2/3 board there is room to wire the marker lights as ditch lights and have them blink.

 

I think Lionel may have made a turquoise engine back in the day. So many were one off two  off production.

sorry to have brought it up, but the nav light comment was truly tongue-in-cheek.

nav lights on something that cannot steer makes no sense whatsoever.

 

i'm more of a steam guy myself and at least Lionel got classification flags up front correct for the most part.

I hesitate to resurrect this thread, but FWIW...

 

I was just looking again at Tom McComas' chapter about Tom Sefton's train collection and layout in San Diego in the 1980's: and I noticed that on his 408's, Sefton also put both green bulbs in the front and both reds in the back...

 

 

 

The first two posts in this thread were great.  Nice choice you made on the train set.

 

As for the lights thing:  This IS the tinplate forum, guys, and ALL of these were originally made to be played with as toys.  I doubt that a single lad back then--or a single dad for that matter--paid the least bit of attention to what side what color was on.

 

Still, for those who like researching that kind of minutia, more power to ya! 

Of course not.  I was one of them.  But Allan, it's INTERESTING!

 

kid 1: Hey, look at my new train.

kid 2: Wow, cool color!

kid 3: Yeah, nifty.  Hey, how come those lights are like that?

kid 1: I dunno.

kid 2: Look, this one's like that too!

kid 1: That's funny lookin!

kid 3: Think anybody knows why?

kid 2: Nope.

kid 3: Cool!

 

 

 

 

We're just making light of the situation.

 

Bob

...and how often were they replaced in a pinch during the Christmas season with one of these bulbs...and I bet they weren't always just red or green!

 

Thankfully, all that ever really matters in the tinplate world is light and color, and rattle and clatter.

 

 

Jim

hojack,

You had to go there didn't ya?

 

Jim, no joke..look what I found listed on the bay.

 

 

Hey, how come those lights are like that?  

 

 

 

Those are streamlined bulbs.  Help reduce drag...

 

The old reliable GE Mazda lights! They used to have 7 in a string of lights for the tree that plugged into a 120 volt outlet. Wired in series, so when one burnt out they all went out. However they were great replacements for use in Lionel trains, as they would work great with 14 to 20 volts. The lower the voltage the longer they lasted. I still have about 35 of them, bought at yard sales or train shows, even have the old box they came in. BTW you forgot the pink light bulb.

 

Lee Fritz

Lee,

 

I have fond memories of those bulbs too.

 

One of our yearly Christmas traditions came the weekend after Thanksgiving. My father and I would get out the old KW transformer and test each of those bulbs individually. Looking back now I see that it served little real purpose, but seemed to get all involved into the Christmas spirit. In fact, I guess just the fact that I remember it so many years later means something!

 

The next weekend would be the trip to the Lionel showroom and Gilbert Hall of Science which really put things in high gear for the season.

 

Jim

I, of course, am not old enough to remember those bulbs , but they sure are kind of awful looking in model locomotive application. 

 

However, one had to make do with what one had available "back in the day."

Chris Lonero - ask your son if this old memory jogger is still in use out there on the ocean blue - " I Left 2 bottles of Red wine in Port"   

 

Red was for the left side which was the port side and 2 whistle blasts was the indication that the ship was turning to port (left).

 

...as for Lionel getting it "backwards" it was just JLC's way guaranteeing that his trains would be an endless source of talking points for discussions into the far future.

You folks talk as if those bulbs are a thing of the past.  We still make them and ship them here on the Blueboard Central Division of American Flyer Lines.

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer