Help needed to identify a 2-8-0 loco

Just a suggestion; you might edit your title to reflect a "2-8-0 loco", as most would not be familiar with an "old 280 loco" term. The wheel arrangement is a 2-8-0, in U.S. terminology.

Pearce Tool Co?  If you cannot find a Pearce or Hines tender, an All Nation tender will look ok.

WEll, It is not a CLW loco in my opinion.    CLW reworked and made a kit for the PRR H10 consolidation which is chunkier looking and most important has a Belpaire fire box.   I have two of them.   The details also are not like the CLW loco.    Another one I would rule out is the Hine/Pearce 2-8-0.    That model is based on their USRA 0-8-0 but again I think has a fatter boiler and a more husky look.

The underside with the open axle gear probably dates this to the 1940s-50s at best.    However the level and quality of the detail that appears in the photos compares well with newer models.    I don't think it is a Brass Import.   I think it might be scratch built either by one of the custom builders of that era, or an individual for personal use.

I am not familiar with most RR steamers except Pennsylvania RR (PRR) to some extent.     so I have no idea what the prototype might be.   It appears to be a nice model and with some "tender loving care" (TLC) could be a nice piece.   Straightening out the bends and dents on the cab roof and other details and a new paint job would do wonders.   

Unless you find a prototype, any generic tender would work I think.   You might find an old All Nation or General models tender that would do nicely.

@Hot Water posted:

Just a suggestion; you might edit your title to reflect a "2-8-0 loco", as most would not be familiar with an "old 280 loco" term. The wheel arrangement is a 2-8-0, in U.S. terminology.

Thanks,  just done. Sorry i am more used to the French terminology....

Kind regards, Daniel

I agree with prrjim,  get it cleaned up or repainted and place a generic tender behind it until you actually find out the finer details about this engine.   Also what do you suppose the long pig tail was for?

@prrjim posted:

The underside with the open axle gear probably dates this to the 1940s-50s at best.    However the level and quality of the detail that appears in the photos compares well with newer models.    I don't think it is a Brass Import.   I think it might be scratch built either by one of the custom builders of that era, or an individual for personal use.

 It appears to be a nice model... 

I probably shouldn't even comment, as I am a complete novice (   but if you look at the lower portion of the cylinder, it appears that there are some "flattened filed" areas, so I would also guess scratch-built.

In any case, a very "nice model" indeed. You should be pleased. 

Mark in (smokey) Oregon

@Allegheny posted:

I agree with prrjim,  get it cleaned up or repainted and place a generic tender behind it until you actually find out the finer details about this engine.   Also what do you suppose the long pig tail was for?

Connection for the tender...(?)

Mark in (still smokey) Oregon

Yes, but for a sound system?  Does the locomotive actually run on the track when you apply voltage to it?  Is there a smoke unit in this thing?   

A lot of information, many thanks everybody.  It confirms what I thought about this piece, 40's or 50's in regard of the construction. Even the paint looks period. I have seen pictures of CLW models but they are not the exact same model and this one is not for the PRR.  I enjoy the idea of a home made model from Hines/Pearce base. I have searched  through different forums and founded that construction is similar.

This model of course doesn't have smoke or sound system, the two long pin tails are to take current from one side of the tender, one for the motor and the other for the front light. Similar system I have in Scalecraft models, and it seems it was a common thing in those times. One side of the loco is isolated and one side of the tender also so perfect for two rails operation; of course it could be possible to mount a third rail pick up but I prefer keeping it for two rails operation.  I do not know what type of motor is in the body, just received i this evening, but it seems to run smoothly and be very powerful.

The major problem will be to find a correct period and matching tender. The idea of an All nation one would be fine for this type of engine,   just need to find one and in France it is not a common thing to find at all.... but there is auction sites so maybe one will appear.

The future of this engine is using a lot of TLC as you said a make a great model. Straightening the cab is not a problem, some details to make it look good, some soldering to do better, and a nice paint job.  I would prefer to do the paint at the same time of the loco and tender but finding one may need some luck and time...  except if someone has an extra one.

I hope to show it to you after restoration in a not too long time.

Thanks again, Daniel

My guess is that the long wire is the tender electrical connection. There are no visible pickups to the wheels, so I am guessing that the current collection works by the loco chassis being live to one rail with insulated wheels on one side, the tender being live to the opposite rail and a connection between them.

This was a common American form of construction, still used today (my MMI 2-8-2 locos, made in the early 2000s work that way) 

Looks like Scale Model Railways from Huntington Indiana.

It looks like a home made brass/tin boiler on the Scale Models chassis, compare the underside of Daniel’s loco to the catalog. Lead truck is the same fire box pan is the same with the slots for the wheels, the chassis is the same. 

What year is that catalog illustration?

I would say you nailed it Dennis!

It looks like the axles are captive in the chassis (no individual pedestal binders or "bottom plate.")  This is what is shown in your second photo, and it would make sense that the chassis was sold already assembled as a unit (like Lionel's 700K.)  And look at the size of that worm wheel!  I wonder what the gear ratio was on this thing!  Nice find!!

@Dennis Holler posted:

It looks like a home made brass/tin boiler on the Scale Models chassis, compare the underside of Daniel’s loco to the catalog. Lead truck is the same fire box pan is the same with the slots for the wheels, the chassis is the same. 

You guys got Dennis to come out!...good to see you makin replies Dennis!,....haven’t seen you around here in a minute!!...

Pat

@Dennis Holler posted:

It looks like a home made brass/tin boiler on the Scale Models chassis, compare the underside of Daniel’s loco to the catalog. Lead truck is the same fire box pan is the same with the slots for the wheels, the chassis is the same. 

I bet you're right; the spacing on the domes is way different from the stock kit...

Mark in Oregon

I am still betting on Pearce.  I have one, and while somewhat re-arranged, all the parts match.

Henry spent a lot of time making jigs and fixtures.  Check that cab out - it is sheet brass with embossed rivets, hatches, and window mullions.

photo as soon as I get to the big computer.

Bob2

Here's a Pearce you posted in the thread "Consolidations and 0-8-0s":

(Photo and model by Bob Turner...hope it was okay to show this...) Thought I would save you the trouble of finding it...  

Looks like it might be tender drive(?)

Mark in Oregon

Yes, ok.  Thanks.  Do you think I need to post a shot of the frame (identical to the French model) or is that good enough?

Yes, motor in tender.  The locomotive came without motor or worm, so I had to cut my own and make pillow blocks.  Tender is scratch.

Here is my friend Jim's Pearce Consolidation.  I have his permission to post his photos, but use it sparingly.  This is a worthy place.

This model is so attractive I patterned mine after it.  I may even get "Erie" decals!

Here ya go - look familiar?

The Cab roof is a strong identification.  Only Hines/Pearce made this type roof with indented roof hatches.  Clearly a Pearce model - he purchased the line through an intermediary (Kansas City Kits) from Hines Lines.  Henry Pearce made a few improvements over the years but this model kit could have been made any time between 1950 and 1970.  I think after that Henry may have used a closed gearbox.

Hello all ...drive looks like Hines      Hines advertised a Mikado (1946)  , 0-8-0 ( 1947) , and a Pacific (1949) .......but there are several of the Consolidations out there     ......Hines went to Simmons in KS   about 1951 ..and shortly after to Pearce .....so unknown if the Consolidation is a pure Hines or a later Pearce ...

Jim DeBruin wrote about Hines with photos comparing the Consolidation / Mike / 0-8-0 ... photos below . 

the tender is cast aluminum..... looks as if same tender for all engines .

Bill Lenoir designed the Hines engines ...that is why that look good ...  only the Mike has Adams castings ..later engines cast some where else ... perhaps  Pearce ? ..... 

Last photos the Berkshire .... designed by Lenoir ..in my opinion the best looking of the bunch ... was going to be after the Mike in production  casting by Adams ...but Hines forgot to pay Adams for the Mike castings ...so Berk castings were sold to Central Locomotive Works  by 1948 ...

Cheers Carey  

Looking at these posts made me wonder...Once I'm gone and someone else has my trains, how will they ever know what brands they are or what mods were made?  Heck, I even look at them and have to think about it!

@bob2 posted:

Here is my friend Jim's Pearce Consolidation.  I have his permission to post his photos, but use it sparingly.  This is a worthy place.

This model is so attractive I patterned mine after it.  I may even get "Erie" decals!

Bob,  Hahaha, I remember that Erie 2-8-0! That was my dad's. I think he acquired it sometime in the 1960's. For years it wore basic black. One day I said that thing needed a paint job. So...there it is. I wanted colorful graphics on it. I also added the removable front end air tank. I sold that on ebay some years back. Glad it ended up somewhere safe, whoever that Jim is.  The 584, meaning that is when it was last painted, (May 1984)

After some research I just founded, always in France, a tender that I think is a good match for the loco, it is a Weaver two rail models without lettering.  It will be a New York Central model, now it is time to make some work on the loco and tender. Does it seems correct ?

Daniel

A picture would help.  The Weaver die cast 2-8-0 had an appropriate tender.

Weaver sold the tender as a separate sale item as it was a perfect improved die cast version of the tenders supplied by Pearce and All Nation.  That is why it is not lettered.  The Weaver tender was supplied with his poorly received pacific which was a die cast and extremely similar to the All Nation pacific.  He (Joe Hayter)  sold the pacific tooling to K-Line who did better with sales to the 3 rail crowd.

JJ

Finally got the picture.  That is the correct tender.

Hi Carey,

I have an advert which shows that Kansas City Kits (Simmons) sold/offered the Berkshire with rest of the former Hines Lines.  I seem to have misplaced my Pearce catalog so I am not sure if he got it or it went to CLW like you noted.

JJ

Hello,JJ ..can you please post a photo,of the Simons paperwork ? Thank you Cheers Carey 

History  of Hines lines and Kansas City KitsUSRA Mountain from Hines Lines , not the Berkshire. My mistake.

@j2morris posted:

Weaver sold the tender as a separate sale item as it was a perfect improved die cast version of the tenders supplied by Pearce and All Nation.  That is why it is not lettered.  The Weaver tender was supplied with his poorly received pacific which was a die cast and extremely similar to the All Nation pacific.  He (Joe Hayter)  sold the pacific tooling to K-Line who did better with sales to the 3 rail crowd.

JJ

Actually, the Pacific was made for K-line. Weaver Models took the order because K-line closed right before these were finished. These Pacific engines sold very well for Weaver Models, I have one and I am still looking for another 2 rail version. 

A little update, I just cleaned the loco to keep it with some patina and here it is with a Weaver tender. The NYC decals came from  K4 products.

Thanks all for your help, Daniel

Older discussion... it looks great!  👍

Mark in Oregon