Help! No. 50 Gang Car Growls-Update 8/27/14

I am a big fan of new brushes and springs when I do postwar repairs.

ALso,  I use the green scotchbright pads to clean the armature face, they get nice and shiney and pretty much no "Scratches".

Otherwise it is a pretty straight forward tune up!

The thrust bearings wear due to the side load put on them by the worm arrangement.  When they wear, the wheel starts rubbing against the frame and the car slows down and works real hard to go.  This usually happens in one direction first.  The easy fix is to slip a plastic washer in around the axle between the back of the wheel and the frame.Washer will have to have a slot cut in it to allow it to get around the axle.  Use the search function.  You will find several posts on this same subject.

There should be a ball bearing inserted in the armature shaft hole on the brush plate. Sometimes they fall out. When they do, the gang car will run OK in one direction, and poorly or not at all in the other.

The ball is an odd size, 7/64 if I recall correctly.

Did any dust from the emery cloth get into the motor? Some of that stuff is electrically conductive and plays mischief with motors.

There really wasn't very much wear on the brushes. There was still what appeared to be a slight ridge in the center. The brush plates cleaned up nicely with denatured alcohol, so I basically just polished them with 600. No dust really.

I was impressed with the little ball bearing on the armature shaft, The thrust bearing. The balls looked good, just dry. The washer on either side was there also. There seemed to be a ball evenly spaced all the way around.

I didn't check the play in the bushing or armature bearing. Looks like nylon instead of brass.

I also didn't remove the field assembly to fully access the worm gear wheel on the drive axle. The worm and the gear looked to be in good shape.

It does feel like one direction takes a little more effort to spin from the wheel than the other. The side to side movement on the drive axle isn't much.

I suppose I'll disassemble it again and examine everything a little more closely. It seems like something is binding or tighter as it runs very quietly and smoothly in the good direction.

CW..A ball didn't fall out, but I didn't look for one either...Hmmn something to check. It's looks like I have the 1955 nylon brush plate with the horn on the side. Is there still a ball in that one? I don't see it in the service manual?

Thanks everyone. My first adventure with one of these critters. I like it and want it to run.

I'll let you know what I find.

All gang car brushplates should have the bearing ball.

Ok, what I don't have is an armature shim washer, 3472-28 nor do I have a ball in the brush plate where the armature shaft goes in. It seems that one direction keeps the armature down and the other direction wants to push it out. So, if it can rise up into the armature plate then the gears will bind.

It seems that the ball is necessary as there is a lot of room for the armature to rise up into the plate.

Do I need a ball or the shim washer on the bottom or both to keep it properly aligned vertically?

CW-is that little ball a hardware store item? Where do I find one?

Odds are you won't find the ball locally. As I posted earleir, it is an odd size.

The Lionel part number is 50-102.

Or you can buy them on ebay.

Off the top of my head, these will do.

A lifetime supply, but its only $6.75 postpaid.

You may not need the shim washer. 
If you are ordering parts from a Lionel parts guy, might as well get it.

If not, try just the ball first.

CW, Thank you. They don't list that ball on the parts list. Now, that's some knowledge.

I just peeked through the side holding the brush plate on and spun the wheel. The armature is jumping up into the plate away from the gear.

I can see the dimple at the top of the brush plate shaft hole that the ball would ride on.

I'll get the little stuff and I should have a nice little runner.

Thank you again!

If you can't find the ball bearing, a short piece of K&S Engineering 3/32" or 7/64" brass rod will work to keep the armature in place. Just round over the end facing the armature with a fine file and emory cloth.

Thanks Len2. My parts are ordered. You can still find parts. I'll post a video of it running quietly(LOL) when I get it together. 

the wealth of knowledge on this forum never ceases to amaze. 

On PW, CW is the ... well, couldn't think of anything, but he knows.

So, here is the update...

When I acquired the gang car, the gang had quit and left, the green suited guy, stole a shim and the other two guys vandalized the field wiring.

I hired a new crew. ( A very good crew, I have to say) They acquired the necessary parts for repair and maintenance and have the car running and are back at work.

The ball was too large and wouldn't allow the brush plate to seat fully. The shim was installed and provided the correct spacing for the armature to maintain the worm to gear contact without binding.

While I was there, I took the advice of Navy Ben and installed new brushes and springs.

Then it didn't work properly. I examined the wiring diagram and discovered the vandalism by the previous crew. One of the field wires common wires was switched with the brush wire. Switched those and it now runs properly.

I adjusted and lubricated everything while I was in there.

One issue remains.

It seems that the voltage required needed to get it to operate smoothly is a little fast for my liking. Running a 180w Lionel brick, 10a available.

With no e-unit, would the voltage dropper method for jack-rabbit start elimination work for a power direct to motor application?

Is there another mod to get it to run a little slower and smoother?

It's too early now, I'll post a video later.

Thanks to everyone for assisting to save this little guy.

quote:

The ball was too large and wouldn't allow the brush plate to seat fully. The shim was installed and provided the correct spacing for the armature to maintain the worm to gear contact without binding.

Just curious, where did you put the shim(s)?

I have experienced the same problem when using one of the more recent Modern era Lionel gang car brush plates as a replacement on a postwar gang car. I used some nylon washers that fit into the depressions in the brushplate cover where it contacts the posts. They fit tightly, and do not fall out.

I placed directly under the armature, before the thrust washer, thrust bearing and second thrust washer. This raised it slightly, set the worm depth and elevated the shaft into the brush plate to touch the dimple inside. I had to sort of torque the brush plate screws lightly, because snugging them put too much drag on the armature. Once I found the feel for tightness, I put a little blue loctite on them.

Judging by the markings, blue bumpers, right-side horn\brush plate, this is a late '55 or '56, the common variation.

I am not certain I am following you. Did you leave the ball bearing out?

Yes.

No shim and ball in...couldn't seat brush plate.

Hole in brush plate has a point and the top of the armature shaft has a dimple.

Is there a set screw in the brushplate?  That would replace the ball bearing.

hey, Chuck.

The brush plate would get nowhere seating with the ball in and no shim. The shim works perfectly, no ball and it's running fine.

Well, except the collector roller is worn with a groove and sparks on my FasTrack. I was going to shoot you an email about a collector.