How heavy a train can you safely pull?

With traction tires, relying on wheel slippage may not work.    Without traction tires, all my stuff will spin the wheels before they draw too much current or damage anything.    You could put a hold the loco coupler and try spinning the wheels for a short burst.     Or  you could put a Amp meter IN-LINE with track feeds and then try holding it.   that way you can see if the amperage is going up very fast or the wheels or spinning.   It would be safer with the meter.

Those are all pretty free-rolling cars, at least the ones I have, so my locos could pull that train on level track.   On any grade it would have to have a helpee.

Build it to pull all of it,……😁

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Build it to pull all of it,……😁

Pat

Well, yeah, if you Harmon-ize it, it'll pull a brick!  But we are talking K-line, not Harmon Yards.

@RRDOC posted:

Well, yeah, if you Harmon-ize it, it'll pull a brick!  But we are talking K-line, not Harmon Yards.

They suck, they’re underwhelming at best……….,sure on level track they’ll pull an ok consist for a little bit, but the motor is just too puny to pull anything that’ll put a smile on your face …..I’m actually about to finish up a Kline K4 that got a chassis swap with a giant Pittman ( yes, I can help Pennsy guys too ) it’s actually a very nice model IMO, but I ain’t a Pennsy guy, so what do I know…..but I do know this K4 I’m building will pull the sink out of the wall,…..😁

Pat

I am not familiar with your K-line locomotive, but it might tell you if it is pulling too much weight long before it sustains damage.  I have an MTH PS3 F7A.  With dummy F7 BBA units and 6 passenger cars behind it, it will slow down going up a 2.5% incline even though I’m running DCS.  So, I only run that consist on level track.

What started all this mess with the Kline’s was how lackluster they performed, vs. what they look like, ….I tried pulling 5 18” MTH heavies, on O99, and she balked,…(after 15-20 minutes of running ) the motor just didn’t want it,…like you, I wanted to pull an impressive train which such a nice model,…..so I figured out how to chassis swap them to get the best of both worlds, good looks, & good power….I built one Kline Hudson for our good friend Chris A. , and he pulls a mother load of GGD cars uphill …..BOTH WAYS …..😁😁😁

Pat

So I'll chime in here.  As Pat noted and we discussed the details at length before the upgrade,  I wanted to pull 7 Scale GGD Heavyweight Pullman cars.   While the video below has 3 different long trains running on the 240 foot mainline,  if you navigate your way around you'll see the upgraded Hudson pulling those cars.   Of the 7 GGD cars, they're all 20 inches in length (80 foot), 3 are Brass,  2 are aluminum, and 2 are Plastic.  It's a heavy train with some rolling resistance due to the 6 wheel trucks and pick up rollers on every car.

Thanks to Pat's fine craftsmanship, it's never missed a beat, the speed control is awesome maintains exactly the same speed up or down the grade.   and it will absolutely creep along at speed step 1.    Best investment I ever made in upgrading a locomotive. 

I didn't shoot any video of the entire grade as that end of the layout isn't finished, and that wasn't my focus when I shot it a couple of days ago.

The grade starts downhill just to the right of the large coal mine and tipple on the upper level and is roughly 24 feet in length,  1.5% grade and has 270 degrees of curves.  Obviously the grade concludes when the trains are on the lower level which is around 8 inches below the upper main route level.

All 270 degrees of curves on the grade are 096 on the inside, and 0100 on the outside.  I made it a single mainline and joined the two levels back in 2019, so I could run 3 long trains simultaneously.  All trains have to climb and descend the grade.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...NXCPF9AJ0&t=189s

I judge this one by wheel spin, I'm pretty sure I ain't gonna' hurt the drive train or the motor!

This Lionel Mallet effortlessly pulled 54 tank cars...

The Mabuchi 300 series motors can sustain 20 ~ 25 watt continuous.  Most TMCC motor driver boards top out about 15v.  Divide 25 by 15v = 1.66A continuous draw.  Starting your train you might see 3 ~ 4A or so if you throttle back to 1.6A once your rolling you would be OK.  However I don't think you can pull a 15car consist at any speed on level track and stay under 1.6A.   Pat what do you do with all the MTH Hudson bodies you collect ?  Have you installed the K Line chassis in any ?   We might want to be careful of any MTH Hudsons we bid on.       j

@JohnActon posted:

The Mabuchi 300 series motors can sustain 20 ~ 25 watt continuous.  Most TMCC motor driver boards top out about 15v.  Divide 25 by 15v = 1.66A continuous draw.  Starting your train you might see 3 ~ 4A or so if you throttle back to 1.6A once your rolling you would be OK.  However I don't think you can pull a 15car consist at any speed on level track and stay under 1.6A.   Pat what do you do with all the MTH Hudson bodies you collect ?  Have you installed the K Line chassis in any ?          j

When MTH started cleaning house, way before they even closed their doors, I was able to acquire a mountain of MTH bare chassis/drive blocks ( whatever you want to call them ) So there’s no shells to speak of except the few stragglers here & there,…there’s really nothing left of the Kline chassis when I’m through, …..even the drivers are harvested for MTH drive blocks that have missing wheels, chipped wheels, bent wheels, etc,….so the Kline is stripped to the bare frame when done ….waste not, want not, ….😁

Pat

@JohnActon posted:

The Mabuchi 300 series motors can sustain 20 ~ 25 watt continuous.  Most TMCC motor driver boards top out about 15v.  Divide 25 by 15v = 1.66A continuous draw.  Starting your train you might see 3 ~ 4A or so if you throttle back to 1.6A once your rolling you would be OK.  However I don't think you can pull a 15car consist at any speed on level track and stay under 1.6A.   Pat what do you do with all the MTH Hudson bodies you collect ?  Have you installed the K Line chassis in any ?   We might want to be careful of any MTH Hudsons we bid on.       j

John, compare a 385 for available sustained gcm, vs, a 9434/9433’s available sustained gcm,…..😁😁😁

Pat

@JohnActon posted:

The Mabuchi 300 series motors can sustain 20 ~ 25 watt continuous.  Most TMCC motor driver boards top out about 15v.  Divide 25 by 15v = 1.66A continuous draw.  Starting your train you might see 3 ~ 4A or so if you throttle back to 1.6A once your rolling you would be OK.  However I don't think you can pull a 15car consist at any speed on level track and stay under 1.6A.   Pat what do you do with all the MTH Hudson bodies you collect ?  Have you installed the K Line chassis in any ?   We might want to be careful of any MTH Hudsons we bid on.       j

Thanks,  John

This will give me a target at least.  The section of my layout where I would run it is level, and the 2-rail GGD cars are very lightweight, and very little drag, so I might get away with it.  I'll watch the amps.

Plan B is to double-head with my other K-line K4.  I'm sure that 2 mediocre pullers together would work.

Bob

@RRDOC posted:

Plan B is to double-head with my other K-line K4.  I'm sure that 2 mediocre pullers together would work.

Bob

That would be very prototypical as the Pennsy did the same thing.

@harmonyards posted:

John, compare a 385 for available sustained gcm, vs, a 9434/9433’s available sustained gcm,…..😁😁😁

Pat

ASAP, soon as I finish mounting this 385 in my Big Boy.          j

@RickO posted:

That would be very prototypical as the Pennsy did the same thing.

That definitely would help, if you think about it, 2 Kline K4’s with 385’s would be be in the same ballpark as just about any modern made diesel with twin 385’s ….given the added weight of course, …..I believe Gary (superwarp1) double heads his Kline Berks and reports no issues,…..naturally, adding power however you can is always a plus ….

Pat

@JohnActon posted:

The Mabuchi 300 series motors can sustain 20 ~ 25 watt continuous.  Most TMCC motor driver boards top out about 15v.  Divide 25 by 15v = 1.66A continuous draw.  Starting your train you might see 3 ~ 4A or so if you throttle back to 1.6A once your rolling you would be OK.  However I don't think you can pull a 15car consist at any speed on level track and stay under 1.6A.   Pat what do you do with all the MTH Hudson bodies you collect ?  Have you installed the K Line chassis in any ?   We might want to be careful of any MTH Hudsons we bid on.       j

I'm curious where you get your numbers from, they don't jive with my previous experience.  That being the case, I just did an experiment.  I pulled a 20 car consist with a LC+ 2.0 RS3 around my 140 foot main loop, including the 2.5% grade. The consist was 19 MTH premier boxcars and one Lionel lighted caboose.

At idle before I started moving, the current to the track was .34 amps.  At roughly 30 scale MPH, the peak current observed was 1.19 amps, obviously on the grade.  Increasing the speed to about 60 scale MPH, the peak current observed was 1.49 amps.  Even assuming the motors aren't sharing the load equally, the maximum current for both the motors at 60 scale MPH was 1.15 amps.

I did the same run with a Legacy ES44AC, the idle current was .39 amps, the peak at 30 scale MPH was 1.11 amps, and the peak at 60 scale MPH was 1.41 amps.  I was a bit surprised the larger Legacy locomotive actually was using less motor current then the RS3, but neither was working all that hard.

My power is a pure sine wave Lionel PH180, so there shouldn't be significant measurement error in the current measurements.

We have had previous discussion.  Note: that down grades can be more of a problem, than anything else. IMO, Mike CT.

On an old layout I had a two track main that went up a grade consisting of O72 track that climbed to a height of about 6 inches over about 14 feet of track.  In terms of can motored locomotives, I would regularly have a Lionel PA1 pull 6 aluminum cars and a B unit and a Lionel Alco C420 regularly pull 12 car freights with a caboose.  Neither locomotive had any issues with cam motor failures or similar.  Postwar style F3s would pull pretty much anything you would put behind them but one advantage of a pullmor is that it is generally more robust than the standard can motor.

My sense from what I have read here is that the K line steamers may have been under-motored but generally I think any Lionel or MTH locomotive with two motors can handle fairly long consists, including on a grade.  If in doubt, you can always create a lash up.  

I didn't see the downgrade as a particular issue, obviously the motor current dropped to basically nothing coming down.  I saw around .6 amps coming down, so the motors were drawing maybe .20-.25 amps.

@harmonyards posted:

John, compare a 385 for available sustained gcm, vs, a 9434/9433’s available sustained gcm,…..😁😁😁

Pat

For the learning group in the peanut gallery, what is "sustained gcm"  - I hope it is not too obvious

My Vision Line Big Boy pulled a 70 car consist around the club layout with several grades for a couple of hours a couple years ago.  It didn't seem to have any issues, and it wasn't overheating as near as I could see.  It does have the big Pittman, that probably helps.  On that same clut layout, I had two Legacy U-boats pulling 115 cars.  I will confess, those two were really working, that was probably knocking on the door to an overload.  I was impressed that they could manage the task.  More recently, I pulled 54 tank cars with a Legacy C&O Mallet on my layout, it took that in stride as well.

A key point here is what kind of cars you're pulling.  If we're talking about post-war cars or Menard's cars, they can have more rolling resistance than modern cars with needle-point axles, makes a big difference in the pulling power required.  I'm guessing if I put 20 of my Menard's boxcars behind those engines, they'd be working a lot harder!

@Ray Lombardo posted:

My sense from what I have read here is that the K line steamers may have been under-motored but generally I think any Lionel or MTH locomotive with two motors can handle fairly long consists, including on a grade.  If in doubt, you can always create a lash up.  

The K-Line steamers were kinda' underpowered as a rule, many of their scale sized locomotives had the Mabuchi 3xx motors, Lionel and MTH usually opt for a larger motor for scale steamers.

@hokie71 posted:

For the learning group in the peanut gallery, what is "sustained gcm"  - I hope it is not too obvious

A measure of torque.  Grams / centimeters, If you take a shaft and put a 1cm lever on the end and attach 1 gram to the end of the shaft the gcm will be 1.  Other common measures of torque Is Newtons per meter (Nm) and Ft/lb.       j

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm curious where you get your numbers from, they don't jive with my previous experience.  That being the case, I just did an experiment.  I pulled a 20 car consist with a LC+ 2.0 RS3 around my 140 foot main loop, including the 2.5% grade. The consist was 19 MTH premier boxcars and one Lionel lighted caboose.

At idle before I started moving, the current to the track was .34 amps.  At roughly 30 scale MPH, the peak current observed was 1.19 amps, obviously on the grade.  Increasing the speed to about 60 scale MPH, the peak current observed was 1.49 amps.  Even assuming the motors aren't sharing the load equally, the maximum current for both the motors at 60 scale MPH was 1.15 amps.

I did the same run with a Legacy ES44AC, the idle current was .39 amps, the peak at 30 scale MPH was 1.11 amps, and the peak at 60 scale MPH was 1.41 amps.  I was a bit surprised the larger Legacy locomotive actually was using less motor current then the RS3, but neither was working all that hard.

My power is a pure sine wave Lionel PH180, so there shouldn't be significant measurement error in the current measurements.

If you look at the Mabuchi site most of the 3xx series are rated between 20 and 25 watt continuous. He is wanting to pull 15 passenger cars and I have no way to know how well they roll with 2 pickup rollers on each so If I take the max voltage most tmcc motor driver boards I have measured is 15v into 25watt you end up with 1.66a max continuous draw is about the max you can expect from one 385 motor. If you know the exact measure the consist requires to move you can make a better guess but you cannot equate freight cars without pickups with passenger cars. Then I would guess he wants to drive his passenger train a bit faster than your freight train. However if he keeps his continuous current draw below 1.66a his 385 motor should be safe.  Then as others have said if he double heads his second K4 he can crank it up and not worry. My aim was primarily to keep the smoke from coming out the wrong places on his loco. People have fried their motors in K line Hudsons with fewer than 15 cars.  I have one and the motor gets really hot pulling 6 passenger cars.  It may not raise a blister but would be quite uncomfortable to hold in your hand.         j

OK, 15 passenger cars is a significantly higher load.  I'm not sure that wouldn't be possible, but I didn't test that.

And the heat is the problem, …..stock Kline Crusie will go wonky with heat, I’ve seen that happen first hand, and stock TMCC with added heat in the motor really gets awkward, …my stock Kline Hudson didn’t like 5 heavies for anything more than 20 minutes, it’s started to do dumb things, the one and only stock Kline Hudson I own is condemned to 3 car commuter duty, where it’s happy,……ain’t no way on earth a single 385 is gonna yank 15 GGD cars and not nuke itself after any kind of sustained run, ……put all the numbers in the rotary file, the physics just ain’t there,…..and there’s no point of even worrying about the down grade if you can’t even make it up the grade, ……I think Bob’s best shot is a double header, with two good known tuned up locomotives that ain’t fighting one another….I’d try that as a test, but alas, anybody here that’s getting the “treatment” is well under way……

Pat

Let’s see if Gary @superwarp1 can weigh in …..I know he runs Kline Berks with the 385’s ……he double heads his, so his input would be valuable in this conversation…

Pat

I think the K-Line cruise board can die all by itself, it doesn't need an overload to croak.  I put those in the same bucket as the MTH PS/2 5V board set, reliability isn't it's long suit!

@harmonyards posted:

Let’s see if Gary @superwarp1 can weigh in …..I know he runs Kline Berks with the 385’s ……he double heads his, so his input would be valuable in this conversation…

Pat

No Kline cruise in my berks.  Mike Regan long ago developed firmware to use his EOB drop in boards with the Kline tach sensor.  So that’s what in them now.  

As for the pulling power of the Kline berks, they are quite slippery hence the need to run them in a lashup. Maybe ten cars before the drivers start spinning for a single engine.  Must be due to the forward facing motor and a small Mabuchi to boot.  This is funny as the Kline mikados don’t slip like the Berks do and it’s the same setup.  So I have never maxed out the Mabuchi motors even pulling a fifty car train in lashup.

But I’m feeling a new video coming up.  Let’s see how many cars I can put behind my berks.  Thanks guys.  As for Kline cruise, it sucks.

When I first saw the title to this thread, I thought it would lead me to some posts explaining how many cars different engines could pull efficiently. However, it seems that its focus has become how many cars certain K-Line steam engines can pull. Which appears that they can't pull many. I've never had a K-Line steamer and in fact, have only one steam engine left in my locomotive inventory.

Anyway, those of you who are really "into it" just kill me with your experimentation, component adjustments, add-on parts, etc., just to see how many more cars your engine(s) can pull on your evidently massive layouts. Me, I'm just a simple, novice hobbyist, who runs trains mostly to take a break from the activities of daily life, including my steel guitar practicing in the next room.

But, I like diesels and am happy with my Lionel TMCC Santa Fe F7 ABBA set with the front two powered units. They pull a plastic plated express reefer car along with 7 other aluminum passenger cars without a whimper. If I powered them up more than I do, they would leave the track. It's the same situation with my Lionel Legacy Union Pacific F7 ABBA set with the same UP consist. So, each are plenty of train and speed for me. And the powered units on each one are never strained or warm and I don't wear out traction tires.

With my freight trains, one twin-motored Lionel Legacy GP, of which I have only 3, will pull up to 18 freight cars, about all my medium-sized layout can handle, with two straightaways about 10 feet long and all 036 curves, with one S-curve. But they also handle it without a whimper, no strained motors, and no worn out traction tires. Again, if I powered them up more than I do, they would leave the track.

So, these are all plenty of train for me. But then again, I'm just a simple guy and novice model train hobbiest.

Have a good supply of traction tires on hand because the heavier the train, especially on a grade, you're gonna chew up traction tires fairly quick. Diesels not a big deal to swap them out, but steam... depending on the locomotive it can be a real PITA

@Laidoffsick posted:

Have a good supply of traction tires on hand because the heavier the train, especially on a grade, you're gonna chew up traction tires fairly quick. Diesels not a big deal to swap them out, but steam... depending on the locomotive it can be a real PITA

Funny thing, when I pulled the 115 cars with the two Legacy U-boats, after the run I noticed all the little U-shaped chips flapping off the tires, it was taking a little whack out of the tires at each track joint with the load it was pulling!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Funny thing, when I pulled the 115 cars with the two Legacy U-boats, after the run I noticed all the little U-shaped chips flapping off the tires, it was taking a little whack out of the tires at each track joint with the load it was pulling!

Interesting to reaqd this John, don't recall seeing anyone mention the joints eating traction tires before!  This has long been a contention of mine when using Gargraves track as it is most difficult to get tight joints when laying it. At least this has been our experience with it on multiple occasions. We tried using a wooden block and a hammer when initially building our club layout to flush up the track sections but invariably we had areas where the rails would NOT go together flush creating a joint with four sharp edges at most of them! My personal experience with Scaletrax was much better as almost all joints would fit flush creating a nice smooth connection with no undue tire wear. I must assume that Atlas will be similar...

This IS interesting and rail joints aren’t supposed to eat traction tires. Lionel Fastrack isn’t perfect. But it’s been on my layout for over 11 years now and in all that time I’ve replaced only 2 or 3 traction tires. And not because of gaps in rail joints eating them, but due to probably wrong-sized traction tires that became loose over time and came off.

My Lionel Fastrack has tight joints between the rails with no gaps. Probably why the traction tires last so long. 😉

John’s example was an extreme case fellas, …..115 cars is ALOT of cars …..you can’t take that example as gospel,……I run the dog snot out of my machines, (ain’t that why we bought or built them?)  I may lose the odd tire here or there, but mostly I get a year out of a tire before Mother Nature kicks them off a wheel,…

Pat

Truthfully, I replace very few traction tires.  FWIW, the issue was on Atlas track, not Gargraves.  The tires are still on the U-boats, they aren't in bad shape, just those tiny orange peels out of them.

The other factor with traction tires that most of you never have to deal with is the climate. Living in the dry heat of the SW whether CA, AZ, or NM, my tires would dry out and split just sitting on display. Much like RV tires or boat trailer tires, the climate is going to kill them before you ever wear them out. Off this topic of the original OP I know, but traction tires have a couple obstacles to live through. Grades, weight of your train (draw bar tonnage), track condition, and climate, just like wheels of a real train.

My MPC era Illinois Central 8030 bought in 1974 ran more miles than I can count, and not on the best tubular track either, is still going strong to this day. As a kid and until this day, I ran as long of a train as it could pull. I have never replaced one traction tire on it and I still run the heck out of it. I have multiple GP7/9's PC/8576, CR/8757, CNJ/8550, CR GP20/2107 and NPU36B/8857/58 set from this era and although the 8030 is my oldest, I never had an issue with any of the other ones  either. Now one of my Hudson's ( I won't mention the manufacturer for fear of starting a war) the traction tires were worn and fell off while on it's inaugural run with no cars. And for those of you asking, yes it was new.

As a rule I try to keep my trains as light/ drag free as possible. Die cast cars are forbidden. My freight cars are all modern with needle point axles and passenger cars are checked for drag rollers as well as wipers.

The ground wipers on my K Line heavyweights put far to much pressure on the axle making them roll horrible. I put a dab of grease on straightened hair pin and shoved it between the axle and wiper to bend the wiper and relieve the drag. It worked like a charm, they roll nice and free.

At 10x16, my layout isn't large.  So 20-25 freight cars tops and 6-7 car passenger trains are plenty.

I'm guessing my trusty old Pittman powered steamers could probably chase their tales without issue.

My best was 100 scale freight mix of all brands behind 2 MTH Decapods.