How many cars is too many for an engine to pull?

That is a tough question to answer. The amount of cars varies widely with, weight of each car, whether the axles are oiled or not ( i use synthetic liquid bearing), the radius of your curves and steepness of grades. I purchased a pull meter and test my engines to see how much weight will measure before the wheels slip. Then hook the meter between the engine and cars in a curve or on your steepest grade. Then pull out very slowly while watching the meter and stay about 20 % below wheel slip. Then run your train for a good 15 minutes and pay very close attention to the smell of the air as the engine passes by you. You will smell a hot motor if your over working it.

This was a real debate for me.   I only picked up 1 Amtrak unit.  I'm modeling the southwest chief.  I have 8 mth super liners and am still missing a baggage and it's really just to much for one Power unit . It will pull the train for the record but in my opinion it's to much.  It's a struggle but it will do it.  I just couldn't justify getting two Amtrak units at the time since I picked up both Csx as well.  One thing that doesn't help is just how light these units are. 

Stangtrain: I tried my F40 and Dash  as a multiple unit consist, and they really ran well together. They were pulling 10 MTH Amfleet cars without a hitch.

I've wrestled with the question of pulling power over the years.  I'm not sure that traction tires are such a good design idea.  To me, they give a false measurement of the pulling power of a locomotive.  How do we know that the designers of locos with traction tires took the tires into account when they were in the design portion of their work ?   Is it better to have added weight to a locomotive to increase pulling or traction tires ?  

It seems to me that a heavier loco without traction tires would pull a load until the load becomes too much for the loco.  At which point the wheels would slip just as the prototype does.  The wheel slip would be kind of a safety valve to keep the gears from stripping.  Whereas traction tires may offer too much grip, thus not allowing slippage.  Hence gear damage could result.  

All of this depends on the skill and attentiveness of the operator as well.  

No sweat pulling a few passenger cars and the Cabbage unit, you have nothing to worry about.  I routinely pull 8-9 18" passenger cars with a single locomotive, diesel or steam, and they don't break a sweat.

If you want to talk about overloading, I pulled 115 freight cars with a pair of Legacy U-Boat diesels, they were working and earning their keep!

stangtrain posted:

I recently bought Lionel's Amtrak F40PH powered and non-powered engines. While it took a while to get the well publicized issues resolved, both units are now working great!

I had been pulling my MTH Superliner train by a Lionel Dash 9 locomotive. Now that I have the F40PH it has taken over and looks good pulling the train.

The train consists of a baggage car, three coaches, a diner and a sleeping car. The baggage car is very light but the MTH premier superliners are kind of weighty.

My question is: Am I over-taxing the powered F40PH as it is also pulling the non-powered cabbage unit? It is somewhat lighter in weight than the Dash 9.

It seems to be running fine: starting and stopping smoothly with no indication of being over-stressed.

Thanks for any insight that you may provide.

Stan

I have 11 of the MTH Amtrak Superliners--7 premier, 4 railking.  I pull with either the MTH FP40H or a Dash 8 Amtrak.  On level track either will work.  On my steepest grade, I need to use the engines together.  It all depends on a number of factors.

I watch the amp meter.  If a single dual motored engine is pulling over 4 amps, I would get concerned about overheating the motors. Adding a second similar engine is a safer way to go.  How long you pull that heavy train is also a concern. Common sense should prevail to protect today's expensive, hi-tech engines.  

Thanks so much to all for your responses and good advice.

Greatly appreciated!

I always check to see how warm the engine is and then I know it needs a rest or that I am pushing things a bit by running too many cars. Just don't let this happen:

https://youtu.be/WvMl8LUzQnk

In 2 rail, we don't have traction tires.    I like that.   

I just watch for wheel slip.   It the wheels slip easily on starting or on a grade, the train is too heavy.    As someone says, the number of cars is not a good indications because cars weigh differently.

My rule of thumb is if the locomotive can't pull the train you put behind it, you have too many cars.  Has worked well for me so far.  No burned out engines yet.  They either don't go, or spin the wheels (Even with traction tires.).

In General, this is a difficult question, as how free rolling the cars are, the curves and grades all affect the answer, and each locomotive will be different.

 On a level 082/072 layout I pulled 55 cars with everything from Scale Articulated steamers down to traditional sized Mikado, Berkshire and Hudson Jr locomotives, without trouble, wheel slip or over heating.

One of the most impressive, was a Lionel 0-6-0T Docksider, it pulled 46 cars, but started getting warm after about 5 minutes, so I cut it back to 41 cars, and it ran for an extended time without ever getting warm.

Doug

challenger3980 posted:

One of the most impressive, was a Lionel 0-6-0T Docksider, it pulled 46 cars, but started getting warm after about 5 minutes, so I cut it back to 41 cars, and it ran for an extended time without ever getting warm.

Doug

I've got one of the Lionel stakebed cars that I've put a track bolt and nut on. That little 0-6-0t will tug that heavy car all day long without breaking a sweat.

"How do we know that the designers of locos with traction tires took the tires into account when they were in the design portion of their work ?"

Uh, well, they're designers, as you said....paid, trained and educated to do the work. Ideally, and by definition, a designer takes into account every known factor pertinent to a given machine properly doing its work. These are not guys off the street.

Certainly, designs of any product vary in quality, as we all know. Some people do better work than others, some managers demand more or less of their designers, and most things are designed to a price, by necessity. 

It concerns me - no, I passed "concern" years ago; amused, maybe - that so many people in the US have no idea what it takes to design, engineer and manufacture a mechanical (or other) product. It's not something done in the garage. But, since so few US-types are around manufacturing now, it's no surprise that industrial production is entering the world of myth and magical thinking for the citizens of this place.

This is not an issue in China, or in most of the industrialized world.

D500 posted:

"How do we know that the designers of locos with traction tires took the tires into account when they were in the design portion of their work ?"

Uh, well, they're designers, as you said....paid, trained and educated to do the work. Ideally, and by definition, a designer takes into account every known factor pertinent to a given machine properly doing its work. These are not guys off the street.

You assume a ton of facts not in evidence.  Are you saying you actually know who did the designs, or where these products were designed?  I'm pretty sure if you ask Lionel, they'll tell you they're not designed in China.

D500 posted:

It concerns me - no, I passed "concern" years ago; amused, maybe - that so many people in the US have no idea what it takes to design, engineer and manufacture a mechanical (or other) product. It's not something done in the garage. But, since so few US-types are around manufacturing now, it's no surprise that industrial production is entering the world of myth and magical thinking for the citizens of this place.

This is not an issue in China, or in most of the industrialized world.

With this kind of disdain for US engineering, I'm surprised you haven't moved to China to live among the elite.

go here and find the videos.

http://www.ericstrains.com/

Eric even uses a gauge to test pulling power, most engines I have seen reviewed pull over 4 pounds.

I use one of these to get close and my 30 car trains are around 1.5 pounds.

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rolling stock does not weigh much.

"Uh, well, they're designers, as you said....paid, trained and educated to do the work. Ideally, and by definition, a designer takes into account every known factor pertinent to a given machine properly doing its work. These are not guys off the street."

The amount of design and testing of a product tends to be directly related to the amount of financial pain induced during a failure or bad outcome.  The financial cost and risk of losing a lawsuit, loss of goodwill, and warranty costs are some of the primary costs.  Balanced against the benefits of short time to market, design/testing time and costs, and projected profits (including follow-on products).  Ford Pinto gas tanks come to my mind.

Military products, automobiles, heart pacemakers, etc are at the high end of the scale (more concern/testing/design verification).  Household appliances and power tools are some what lower in risk. 

I am going out on a limb here, but I think O scale pulling power and motor heat are probably down closer to clothing and plywood as to how much concern goes into the product design. 

I mean can you say "thin brass engine drive axles", "plastic gears inside a driving wheel", etc?

I'm at 27-35 cars for a good freight consist.  Single engine steamers.

N5CJONNY, thanks for sharing the video.  That locomotive is an honorary Alco if ever there was one!

Challenger,

Interesting anecdote about your Docksider. When I got back into trains, one of the first things I bought was a Docksider. The salesperson told me that it would pull "about 5 cars". Boy was he wrong. It's hard to believe the pulling capacity those little engines have.

Roger

prrjim posted:

In 2 rail, we don't have traction tires.    I like that.   

I just watch for wheel slip.   It the wheels slip easily on starting or on a grade, the train is too heavy.    As someone says, the number of cars is not a good indications because cars weigh differently.

My 2 rail GP35's (3) pulling 39 cars would slip like prrjim stated so i added more units as seen in the middle of the video

When you have the front of the engine 1" from the back of the caboose, you have too many.

Traction tires can be overwhelmed by the high tractive effort due to starting and pulling long trains.

This is almost like asking which engine is the most powerful locomotive ever built. A few different answers are going to come up. I had asked some time ago about pulling power(drawbar weight measured) to how many cars that equals, not going to be a good answer. Sure, more pulling power usually means more cars, but also the types of cars change the numbers as well. Best thing to do, test what can be pulled be your engine and see if it stands still spinning its wheels.

Joe Hohmann posted:

When you have the front of the engine 1" from the back of the caboose, you have too many.

Nope, not enough, or the wrong combination.  If you do it right, the front of the locomotive should couple to the rear of the caboose.

And yes, that docksider can pull a house down.  I have yet to overload it.

Some wise guys here! 

OK, I tried it. Even did a video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOvuzN2U4I0&t=76s

Two 3rd Rail Mikados on my very small layout. Did it primarily to see if it would work. Thirty-three cars IIRC. Grade was 2%. No trouble pulling but the layout is so small that the entire train was always on three 90 degree curves at once, thereby increasing friction even further. The front truck of the lead Mikado would lift and derail on the down grade curve. 

Recommended? Well, not on my layout. Gott'a envy the guys with barn-size layouts!

Thanks for the laugh, Sinclair. That was funny.

Lionel scale freight cars (2002 up) have the least rolling resistance at 8-9 cars per ounce. Atlas is next at twice the resistance of 4-5 cars per ounce. And MTH and others are even worse. I've had freight trains with over 50 Lionel cars and they needed a little less than 8 oz of motive pulling power.  

Number of cars is not as important as the weight of the train you are trying to pull,  Also rolling qualities of the cars figures in too.  Some years ago I was pulling 15 or 18 various freight cars. Some were old hard rolling Lionel post war cars and some were modern free rolling cars.  It was hauled by a Weaver brass  0-6-0.  The engine seemed to be handling the train well enough when  BANG!....the pillow block tore loose.  After I got it back from Weaver I got to thinking that there was no reason to break its little heart with a long train when it was just a switcher so I cut back the length of the trains for it.  BTW if I wanted to haul 20 cars (all I had)I merely assigned my Lionel Frisco Mikado.  The Mikado handled the longer train with no trouble.    ODD-D

One two many :-)

I suppose that you can build a really long train.  The reality for most of us that our layouts aren't large enough to handle a train that is longer than an engine can pull.  Most trains on my layout are only as long as the longest siding.  Any of my engines can pull it.  Even at the club, train length is limited by the length of the longest passing track.

NH Joe

stangtrain posted:

 

My question is: Am I over-taxing the powered F40PH as it is also pulling the non-powered cabbage unit? It is somewhat lighter in weight than the Dash 9.

 

Stan

Hi Stan,

Once you have the train rolling and the engine isn't getting to warm and not pulling to many amps you should be fine.  Just try to throttle up nice and slow to avoid stretching and possibly throwing your traction tires.  I've heard that the Lionel F40PH's are about 20% lighter than many other Lionel or MTH diesels such as the MTH F40PH PS 1.0 or the MTH FP-45 which both weigh over 5lbs. as opposed to the Lionel F40PH which clocks in at only 3.95 lbs.

Here is a video of my MTH FP-45 pulling a non-powered dummy unit with (11) 20" Weaver cars with (4) lighted bulbs in (10) of those cars.  Even with all the lighted cars the MTH FP-45 pulls great and even faster with the speed control off.

Chas