I demand a real warranty for zinc rot.

The train companies aren't going to change while there's money to be made.  People keep crawling all over each other to buy the new stuff, so why should the companies do anything different?  The secondary market is your friend.  Brass steam locomotives and diecast from 20 years ago are safe from new zinc rot.  If you need to have the latest sounds, (swinging) bells and (smoking) whistles, then be prepared for the possibility of zinc rot.

@scott.smith posted:

There is no excuse for today's modern trains to have casting failures due to zinc rot. The solution to this problem was found over 70 years ago. Zinc rot may not show in an engine for 10 years and the trains come with only a 1 year warranty or 5 years from date of manufacturing. I know Chinese manufacturers don't care what happens after it leaves China. We can pay $2000.00 for a locomotive that can literally turn to dust. OK train companies, you got your cheap manufacturing costs and then hide behind a pathetic warranty. You need to hold your China manufacturers accountable and be accountable to your customers.  Today I can get a better value from a shady used car dealer.

Scott Smith

Amen Scott!

I agree with Bob: Such a warranty is not going to happen for the basic reason he stated: Greed reigns supreme.

The Chinese could care less about the quality of their product as long as companies continue to source from them.

Most companies sourcing from China could care less about the long term. In fact, you are now expected to accept the fact that an appliance you paid hundreds (even thousands) more than a similar product that was offered only a decade ago... is only going to have about a 7 year service life. That's the new accepted "norm". Never mind that it's a refrigerator that you paid $1000+ for. You'll do good to get 7 years out of it.

The wife and I have had US made appliances purchased in the mid-1970s that lasted 20-30 years AND parts were available for them up until replaced. EVERY appliance we have purchased in the past 10 years has either already been replaced, or has issues that can't be fixed, or has been repaired more than once. Sometimes all of the above.

The concept of "quality and value" in the market place on almost all levels is long gone.

Andre

From a previous thread l posted:

I contacted Atlas, and I was told since my items were over 10 years old, I would not be granted any price consideration by them. In fact my protestation led the management to draft a policy specifically directed at zinc pest damages. See below:

Warranty determinations need to be specific to the condition under consideration.

For the deteriorating zinc situation that Bill and Don have submitted, Atlas will cover the truck/chassis part without charge for up to three years, following manufacture date, dependent on part(s) currently availability.

Over three years, Atlas will supply the part, if currently available, for an original warranty registered product. If not registered the customer can purchase the part if available at the standard parts rate.

After 5 years from the manufactured date, Atlas will supply the part if available at the standard parts rate.

You’re on the Right Track…with Atlas®️

Thomas W Haedrich

Executive Chairman

Atlas Model Railroad Co Inc

908-687-0880 ext. 7018

It’s unlikely zinc rot will show up before 5 years, so this is just feel good hyperbole. Won’t cost Atlas a cent.

While I agree with the OP and think that the existence of zinc rot is totally preventable and the manufacturers should be ashamed...

WE know that zinc rot is a potential problem.  WE choose to buy products that are produced as cheaply as possible.  WE continue to buy BTO items at high prices.  WE contact the manufacturers who respond by crafting a worthless warranty.  What is the common denominator here?

Personally, this is one of the leading reasons why I've stopped buying expensive items - fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.  I'll stick with postwar and MPC for my 3-rail fix, and I'm transitioning to HO and N for realism.  I'm still waiting for the major manufacturers to alter their policies because of my actions.

Agree there is no excuse, however as long as a company can make money they figure why change.  Please read on.

Corporate greed (and possibly stupidity) reins supreme!

For mass produced BUDGET Toy Trains Chinese manufacturing makes sense (cents?).

When you are charging $2000+ for a MODEL locomotive (2 or 3 Rail) they could be manufactured in the good old USA.  To reduce start-up (tooling) cost you can source the dies off shore.  Then you bring them here, to do the manufacturing.  Unit direct manufacturing cost is increased, but with a $2000 Item it can be absorbed. This allows you to truly control quality.  With good quality control, you eliminate warranty issues (cost) and maintain satisfied customers.  In the long run you make just as much (or more) money and it is much better for your business.

BTW for anyone for anyone that thinks I am "blowing smoke", I am not.  I worked as a Mechanical Product Design Engineer for 45 years.  I worked in various industries with many different sub-contract manufactures.  What I put forth in the prior paragraph has worked very successfully in many instances.  Actually saving some businesses!  At some point, MOST buyers stop shelling out $2000 for products that don't work out of the box.

@laming posted:

The wife and I have had US made appliances purchased in the mid-1970s that lasted 20-30 years AND parts were available for them up until replaced. EVERY appliance we have purchased in the past 10 years has either already been replaced, or has issues that can't be fixed, or has been repaired more than once. Sometimes all of the above.

The concept of "quality and value" in the market place on almost all levels is long gone.

Andre

I was thinking just 2 days ago about the lonely Maytag repairman many of us grew up with! Our Monkey Wards fridge is now 30 years old and still seems fine. As for other appliances, I have, due to lightening strikes, replaced the dishwasher and dryer with good old ANALOG appliances off to Craigs. Now, the EPA is working hard to make sure everything is more costly to buy and more costly to repair for a conceived power savings. China is not the only problem.

For the zinc question, however, now I'm nervous. Today, I smuggled a brand new Atlas SD70AC into the house while wifey was at the mailbox. What parts do I need to be nervous about? It all seems plastic to me!

On a side-barb, Atlas has yet to provide me with a brand-new-out-of-the-box locomotive with straight horns. They always look like cwap.

Bob

The Lionel catalog just arrived! Get your preorders in!!!

@RickO posted:

The Lionel catalog just arrived! Get your preorders in!!!

LOL

For years it has been known that zinc pest is caused by traces of lead in the zinc used for casting engine bodies and parts.  The use of spark spectroscopy instruments can detect the lead in the zinc to extremely low concentrations.  These instruments have been around for over 60 years and are used to analyze every pour of aluminum ingot for dozens of elements, ensuring each pour mets the alloy specifications.

The train manufacturing companies can insist that the Chinese producers test every casting pour of zinc for lead concentration and reject pours that are too high in lead.  This will cost a few dollars more per engine but will allow the manufacturers to guarantee or warrant the train will not have zinc pest.  The manufacturers are obligated to do this for engines now days selling for the thousands of dollars.

Charlie

This subject comes up every so often and is a real concern. However:

As I've said here before, it's not a "new" problem; maybe more common, but not new. I have had HO train stuff made here (Mantua), Italy (Rivarossi), here again (John English) just disintegrate and of course the N scale Rivarossi steam engines imported for Atlas in the 1970s are infamous for it.

I guess the main difference is that these newer examples can be...well, very expensive.

Best of luck getting any kind of real warranty.

Mark in Oregon

@MainLine Steam posted:

When you are charging $2000+ for a MODEL locomotive (2 or 3 Rail) they could be manufactured in the good old USA.  To reduce start-up (tooling) cost you can source the dies off shore.  Then you bring them here, to do the manufacturing.  Unit direct manufacturing cost is increased, but with a $2000 Item it can be absorbed. This allows you to truly control quality.  With good quality control, you eliminate warranty issues (cost) and maintain satisfied customers.  In the long run you make just as much (or more) money and it is much better for your business.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but it *is* possible to have true quality control over products made in Asia or anywhere else.

It is absolutely absurd and inexcusable that Lionel, MTH, Atlas, and WBB haven't eliminated their zinc pest problem. The question is, do we have enough people on this forum to start a grassroots pledge not to purchase from these companies to boycott them until they offer a lifetime waranty for zinc pest?

@Matt_GNo27 posted:

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but it *is* possible to have true quality control over products made in Asia or anywhere else.

It is absolutely absurd and inexcusable that Lionel, MTH, Atlas, and WBB haven't eliminated their zinc pest problem. The question is, do we have enough people on this forum to start a grassroots pledge not to purchase from these companies to boycott them until they offer a lifetime waranty for zinc pest?

My experience has been yes you can get quality products from anywhere (although with China it can be very questionable), but to do so usually costs more than just doing it here.  Time is money in business, and having to constantly monitor, and the "back and forth" requires time and resources.  It may look good to the accountants, but when you are in the weeds trying to get it done it's another story.  If you have had direct experience to the contrary great.  Unfortunately I wasn't as lucky.

I definitely agree that if you want to insure companies change, then boycott them.

there are implied warranties which are different from express warranties.

however, the implied warranties such as that a product will be fit for a particular purpose are usually waived.

also, there is a hidden defect claim that can be asserted, It would seem that zinc rot would be covered there.

@Matt_GNo27 posted:

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but it *is* possible to have true quality control over products made in Asia or anywhere else.

It is absolutely absurd and inexcusable that Lionel, MTH, Atlas, and WBB haven't eliminated their zinc pest problem. The question is, do we have enough people on this forum to start a grassroots pledge not to purchase from these companies to boycott them until they offer a lifetime waranty for zinc pest?

I would sign that pledge in blood.

From 'laming': "The wife and I have had US made appliances purchased in the mid-1970s that lasted 20-30 years AND parts were available for them up until replaced."

My wife an I bought a Sears refrigerator and chest freezer when we were first married 45 years ago.  They both quit within 3 months of each other last year, valves in the compressors finally wore out.  The new stuff we bought will not last 45 years, I would expect less than 10.

@MainLine Steam posted:

My experience has been yes you can get quality products from anywhere (although with China it can be very questionable), but to do so usually costs more than just doing it here.  Time is money in business, and having to constantly monitor, and the "back and forth" requires time and resources.  It may look good to the accountants, but when you are in the weeds trying to get it done it's another story.  If you have had direct experience to the contrary great.  Unfortunately I wasn't as lucky.

I definitely agree that if you want to insure companies change, then boycott them.

Two friends—a couple—built and owned a high-quality children's toy company for a couple of decades. Their production was done in China. Product safety was a selling point, so great quality control was critical to their business. You're right, it required an investment of time and resources. One of them made at least annual, if not biannual, inspection trips to the factory, and IIRC, they also did testing stateside. All that, and it was still less expensive to produce their products in China, indeed, it was essential to their survival.

However, I am not denying that in some industries it may be more cost-effective to have production in the United States in order to maintain quality.

@CALNNC posted:

From 'laming': "The wife and I have had US made appliances purchased in the mid-1970s that lasted 20-30 years AND parts were available for them up until replaced."

My wife an I bought a Sears refrigerator and chest freezer when we were first married 45 years ago.  They both quit within 3 months of each other last year, valves in the compressors finally wore out.  The new stuff we bought will not last 45 years, I would expect less than 10.

When our 20-30 year-old Kenmore or Maytag (?) washing machine finally bit the dust, our repair main advised us to spend the least amount of money possible on a replacement. Unless we were willing to spend a small fortune on the very highest-end machine, for which there are replaceable parts, the circuit boards in the more expensive model could not be relied upon to last any longer than the lowest-end, and replacement boards were either not available or not worth the cost to replace. According to him, this was the case with all major household appliances. The same is true for toasters, too.

I’ll play devil’s advocate for the sake of debate: what other consumer product companies warrant a product beyond five or six or ten years? Sony? Honda? GM? Ford? LG? Why should relatively small companies like Lionel or MTH or GGD do so?

We accept that our $1,000 TVs die in five years, but if that “TV” is a 4-4-2, it should live forever….

Lionel cataloged Legacy Berks in the current catalog. I bought my last Berk in 2014. Every TV in my house that I owned in 2014 has been replaced. My Berk still runs….

The idea that Lionel or MTH owes me a new product ten years from now seems inconsistent with everything else I currently buy.

You need to know you are not alone with the zinc pest disease.  Zinc pest is a big deal in model and real automobiles too.  See below link and check out some links it refers to also if you have a few hours to kill on a lost cause.

https://www.diecastxchange.com...them-outside.235765/

Charlie

@Rider Sandman posted:

I’ll play devil’s advocate for the sake of debate: what other consumer product companies warrant a product beyond five or six or ten years? Sony? Honda? GM? Ford? LG? Why should relatively small companies like Lionel or MTH or GGD do so?

We accept that our $1,000 TVs die in five years, but if that “TV” is a 4-4-2, it should live forever….

Lionel cataloged Legacy Berks in the current catalog. I bought my last Berk in 2014. Every TV in my house that I owned in 2014 has been replaced. My Berk still runs….

The idea that Lionel or MTH owes me a new product ten years from now seems inconsistent with everything else I currently buy.

My socks have a comprehensive lifetime warranty. My tent does. Virtually all of my ski clothes do, from long underwear to outer layers. It is also common in some industries for products to be guaranteed to be free from defect for the life of product.

Zinc rot is not a wear issue, it is a completely addressable quality control issue. It is binary, a product either has it or doesn't have it. Possible existing contract issues aside, the companies could in theory, solve the issue by the 2024 production run. Lionel/MTH/Atlas/WBB could very easily enact a policy stating that if the original owner registers their new product with them online or can show proof-of-purchase, the company will warranty it to be zinc-pest free so long as the original owner maintains possession of it.

The idea that Lionel or MTH owes me a new product ten years from now seems consistent with everything else I currently buy.

Matt, given your experience with socks, tents, and ski clothes, I think you might be on to something.  Everything should be warrantied forever.

@Rider Sandman posted:

Matt, given your experience with socks, tents, and ski clothes, I think you might be on to something.  Everything should be warrantied forever.

I second that!!

@Matt_GNo27 posted:

The same is true for toasters, too.

'Toast' and 'zinc rot' do, indeed, seem to complement each other in this hobby, don't they?

Hillside found the problem nearly 100 years ago...

...and solved it.

Unfortunately, it's not one of those discoveries that found its way into 'best practices' elsewhere in the current manufacturing world...of which WE have become enamored and encouraging...and have little-to-no control over from this side of the pond.  C'est la vie, folks.

Ergo, Confucius may be saying...

"$$$$ choo choos with zinc rot are...toast."

Lifetime warranty for toys!?...that's a good one!

Meanwhile, there's always the Powerball Lottery for diversion.

Heck these newer trains don't even work out of the box half the time. Why would anyone expect them to be fine after 10 years.

Brad

Heck, good idea, I am going to contact the maker of my most recent casualty.  Does anyone have the information on the CEO of K-line?

(Late addition: @B rad Forgot to add apologies for plagiarizing "Heck" an underutilized word these days.)

@Matt_GNo27 posted:

When our 20-30 year-old Kenmore or Maytag (?) washing machine finally bit the dust, our repair main advised us to spend the least amount of money possible on a replacement. Unless we were willing to spend a small fortune on the very highest-end machine, for which there are replaceable parts, the circuit boards in the more expensive model could not be relied upon to last any longer than the lowest-end, and replacement boards were either not available or not worth the cost to replace. According to him, this was the case with all major household appliances. The same is true for toasters, too.

When my wife and I got married about 12 years ago, I bought the cheapest GE washer/dryer combo that I could find locally. They are non-He and the washer still is the traditional top loading agitator style.

I know it probably uses more water than the others, but it’s just me and my wife and we only do about 2-3 small-medium loads a week.

I bought the extended 10 year warranty and didn’t need it, but it was pretty cheap, only $50 each.

@Rider Sandman posted:

Matt, given your experience with socks, tents, and ski clothes, I think you might be on to something.  Everything should be warrantied forever.

I think you’re replying in jest, but L.L. Bean had a lifetime warranty on all their clothing products, including shoes, for a long, long, time. The policy was basically if you didn’t think it lived up to the L.L. Bean name, you could return it for an equivalent replacement.

People did abuse it and I think they recently tightened up the warranty language a few years back, but it’s still a very generous product guarantee, compared the warranties we get now on “durable goods”.

@rplst8 posted:

I think you’re replying in jest, but L.L. Bean had a lifetime warranty on all their clothing products, including shoes, for a long, long, time. The policy was basically if you didn’t think it lived up to the L.L. Bean name, you could return it for an equivalent replacement.

People did abuse it and I think they recently tightened up the warranty language a few years back, but it’s still a very generous product guarantee, compared the warranties we get now on “durable goods”.

L.L. Bean is a wonderful company. I love their stuff. Expensive, but very nice quality. The L.L. Bean boots I snow blow the driveway with every winter were bought in the mid-90s.   I suspect the warranty is/was baked into the cost. Train companies could do the same thing, but that would create a different howl.

As old man Gustafson once said. "You can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up first"!

@Rider Sandman posted:

L.L. Bean is a wonderful company. I love their stuff. Expensive, but very nice quality. The L.L. Bean boots I snow blow the driveway with every winter were bought in the mid-90s.   I suspect the warranty is/was baked into the cost. Train companies could do the same thing, but that would create a different howl.

How much would it really cost them to run a bunch of extra trucks/couplers and locomotive and tender shells?

I’d even be fine pulling all the brass and plastic parts off the shells to replace it myself. I just don’t want a $1000 pile of dust in 15 years.

@rplst8 posted:

How much would it really cost them to run a bunch of extra trucks/couplers and locomotive and tender shells?

I’d even be fine pulling all the brass and plastic parts off the shells to replace it myself. I just don’t want a $1000 pile of dust in 15 years.

Although making extras of all failure-prone parts makes perfect sense to most of us, this isn't how the manufacturers do things for many of their locomotives.  I spoke with Mike Reagan several years ago, back when he worked for Lionel - he told me that "spare parts" for locomotives were generally obtained by cannibalizing extra copies of entire engines.  Seems dumb to me - extra labor, too many parts that will rarely fail, and not enough of the parts that will fail.

The challenge I have with threads like this is that we want quality, but then there are all the threads that complain about the cost of the product.  In the construction world, I go by the old adage that you have three variables: time, quality, and cost.  You can choose two for a successful outcome.  If you expect all three, then do not expect success.  It doesn't totally translate to the model railroading world, but if you want quality, you have to be willing to pay for it.

If you want an extended warranty on a vehicle or for pretty much anything else, you pay extra for it.  How much would someone be willing to pay for this insurance?  With most product warranties it often only extends to a refund of the purchase price, not a repair.

Parts take up space and space costs the manufacturer money to store parts that may never be needed.  One can still NOS parts for American Flyer.  A lot of good it did Gilbert as they are not around anymore.

I understand the frustration on this issue.  I've had some equipment fail due to zinc rot.  However, it is such a small percentage of my collection. 

Nay say all you want.

But the fact remains that the vast majority of today's product mfg'ing companies are NOT quality conscious and do NOT prioritize durability. They have learned they can produce (as cheaply as possible) and sell (as high as the market will bear) their products with short service lives, thus yielding maximum profits. They do this knowing there's nothing that can be done about it by the consuming public. In fact, some of you have already accepted and embraced it, and go with it.

Staying within the realm of 3 rail trains, to illustrate the move away from durability and quality in the effort to maximize profits. Simply look at the evolution of the 6464 boxcar. I understand the demographics that produced such a cheapening over the life of the product line (model trains were falling from favor as a Christmas item or toy option)... but there is NO such demographic shift in appliances and such: We HAVE to have them.

So basically, what we've seen is the transition from producing a tough, durable product (like an appliance made in the late 1950s into the early 1970s or so) evolving into an appliance with more glitzy features... but FAR less durability. The companies have learned that we'll buy such cr*p, use it up, and buy again. We may p*ss and moan about it... but we'll buy. Further, at this point in time, what other choice do we have?

Same goes for trains: The mfg'ers don't care about it being usable past their warranty. They also are not concerned with adequate parts supply to keep the product running several years down the road. Simply put: Model trains are no longer an investment in a "lifetime of happiness".

IF one's priority is trains that last, it appears to me you have to purchase older trains with less detail and zero electronics. Otherwise it's a situation of "you pays your money and you takes your chances".

Andre

Going beyond a warranty claim, WAS THIS A KNOWN DEFECT; the other questions are 1) did Lionel or MTH KNOW that the product was defective when it was sold? And 2) was there harm to the consumer?

I think we can all agree, and any reasonable non-train person would agree, too: Electric toy trains are way too expensive for what we get; and are now a use for a time and "throw-away" product. Many of us are addicted and are "paying through our nose" for what much of which is arguably is junk. Many of us know the pitfalls of addiction. That's all I will say.

@AlanRail posted:

I have not found a case where a product defect claim centers on zinc rot that caused harm to the consumer.

A model with zinc rot likely has lead in it. Isn’t that banned now?

@Rider Sandman posted:

We accept that our $1,000 TVs die in five years, but if that “TV” is a 4-4-2, it should live forever….

I'd love to know where you're getting these TV's that break.  I wish mine would die so I could feel justified to upgrade to 4k.  I can't bring myself to simply put them on the curb while they still work.

Unlike TV's, trains have decent resale value relative to what they cost new.  That makes zinc rot particularly tragic when it happens.

Ah the good old days when wagon wheels and cotton gins, hula hoops and germanium crystal radios lasted for generations .  And no one got in trouble for yelling "get off my lawn."  All our appliances have lasted for 10-15 years, and replaced by much more energy efficient and feature rich appliances. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.  I do not want a 1955 refrigerator or washer and dryer personally.   As for zinc rot, it is obviously a bad thing, but neither intentional nor common, thankfully.  It's always something, to be sure.  Realistically, cars continue to rust away over the decades too.  Don't think anyone's going to get much satisfaction on this issue. 

Lead(Pb)  is the culpret in zinc alloys. Just for kicks, I googled Lead test kits. There are a number of them out there, and they are relatively quick and inexpensive. The question is: How sensitive are they? I found no numbers with the ones I looked at. (Granted, it was not a thorough search!) But, the test needs to detect less than 50ppm (parts per million) Pb. 50ppm Pb is the max allowed in most zinc alloys, so the test should be sensitive to 25ppm or less.

Chris

LVHR