Is There A Lack of Consumer Feedback?

Probably, if there indeed was anything approaching a "majority" in this hobby. 

In my experience, which counts for me but maybe not for anyone else, MTH listens and Lionel ignores.

I don't have a problem with independent remotes on starter sets. Nor on some of the seperate sales engines if a cost factor is involved. But, to not support a unified remote across the platform when your redesigning your electronics on the lower end

is "DUMB".

A majority of the people say there isn't a majority of the people.

Rusty

Allan

Do know of any industry surveys of the market being done? Do we know if there is a majority view or what the percentages are in terms in preferences? I understand based simply on forum comments it seems no one agrees but I wonder if this reflects any kind of reality? The whole gambit of what is made and what is not seems to be hit and miss based on my mentioned product cancellations, presales and over runs leading to blow outs. Seems sort of random...and odd, at least to me it does.

Bruce

I agree with Allan. And it also depends upon who you talk to.

There's a problem with the LionChief use of individual remotes? I think it's a great idea! The market these sets are intended for will probably not be buying dozens of engines. And for a conventional operator as myself, I could be very tempted to buy one of these sets. I have NO interest in TMCC, Legacy or DCS. But this is a very neat idea of offering a stripped down form of digital control without having to buy an entire operating system.

I don't know how many countless times on this very forum I have read "starter set junk." I buy these products and have NEVER once had to return ANY starter set product for defects. NEVER! And I have lots. It's NOT junk, yet that viewpoint persists. One could reasonably argue the Legacy stuff is junk because you read a lot more comments about this stuff not working, return trips to the repair center, lack of parts etc.

I personally think part of the problem is not with the manufacturers, but with us train consumers, many of whom are NOT happy no matter what is offered. And because of the instant gratification trend of the entire culture, we somehow think Lionel (and the others) owe each customer exactly what we want, right now this minute and if we don't get it, we're going to complain about it on a train forum.

I'm not picking on you electroliner. The train companies do trade shows, various train shows and YORK, so they are certainly hearing from customers. Then there's the ease of the electronic media: All the companies have email, websites and Facebook pages. They certainly hear from consumers. But starting a petition on MTH's Facebook page to get them to make a certain engine with correct truck sides won't be nearly as effective as making a substantially large financial donation to pay for that process. Any of the train companies have to ask themselves, "will making this alteration in the product bring forth additional profits to pay for these additional investments?" If the answer is no, then there's not going to be a change.

Another example: You read here how some folks want Williams to revise this and that. Yet Williams has stated they've heard overwhelmingly from their customers who say "don't change a thing."

I think a lot of consumers forget that 0 guage is a very small market. Product development costs are bigger than many want to acknowledge, and the train companies need to balance consumer wants with pleasing the largest group, while still maintaining acceptible profits. They've all said this in public, in so many words.

And any one who can't accept this fact is free to start up their own train company and find out just how easy it is. There seems to be an abundance of folks on the train forums who know more about making trains than Lionel, MTH, Atlas, etc. so they could certtainly start a new train company, convincing the banks that they would be an instant success making billions of dollars in immediate profits.

I think we are in a state of change, and the older we are the more we resist change.  I'm pretty sure Lionel wouldn't of moved in the direction it is (Even if I don't like it.) and spending the time and money to do so, it if hadn't done some studies.  Same with MTH.  Only they know what their 5,10,25 year plans are.  And learning how my grandfather played with trains over how I played with trains to how my son interacts with trains, I can see that Lionel has a reason to go it's way.  When HO came out my grandpa thought it was too small and would never catch on, as did others he knew!  Boy they were wrong.  In time he did have a bit of HO stuff when he passed.  Me, I cut my teeth on a Marx set, and later my grandpa brought over a HO set that I played with for years.  After his passing I got into N and stayed there for a while until I had my own son and got him a Marx set.  Then I liked the size and got my 1st "modern" O engine.  Now with a taste of TMCC, I want to have a mixed command/conventional layout.  My son on the other hand, loves all the crew talk and remote ability of command, and ties of convention in about 10 min or less.  If I got him LionChief sets, he'd be in heaven.  And I'm sure if they made a steamer alien set, he'd be begging me for it.

Lionel is in it for the long run, so they will be working to hook the young kids, not us older guys, so they are going to do things us older guys don't like.

I agree with your view but none the less I wold be interested to know how the manufacturers base their decisions as it seems to be a mystery although everyone has an opinion of this or that. I think they could tell us and yet not give away the specifics and the candy store in doing so. I seem to be the only one perplexed by this preordering, cancellation, blowout cycling.

Everyone seems to simply accept what they are provided without asking how the menu is designed..and consequently..what it is based on. As most are saying no one agrees on anything well...when I think about it this seeming randomness that cannot be reconciled cannot be what specific decisions are based upon. 

And so, a simple question..what are they then based on? Tea leaves? A crystal ball?

Ebay is a good tracking poll. Look at the most recently made conventional items up for sale. The strong level of activity on these items shows just who the majority is.

My 'guess' is that they get a lot of their input/ideas from the shows they attend, customer contact by email, LCCA and other train organizations and distributors and hobby shops or any other means of public dealer contact. Also total sales of past items may enter into the picture.

And I would also 'guess' that the accountants/financial folks have a say in what they develop and produce. This could be a double edged sword? But is probably quite necessary.

I don't like everything they do either, but I really do think they have a handle on what the general population of train buyers are wanting. I also agree with others that the older we get the less we like change. Change is possibly the only constant however. I like some of it, like the new command control features and electronics. That's what got me back in the hobby a couple years ago. Since I have re-entered the hobby, I think the manufacturers have been reading my interests pretty well, and I think my wallet would agree.

One more 'guess' is that the folks here on the OGR forums are mostly the more devoted and experienced in the hobby. I think this is a small percentage of the folks that purchase trains. I think a lot of people (very possibly the vast majority) purchase a set or maybe even two sets over the years and then possibly a few extra pieces of track and some accessories.  I think most of us here have a completely different idea about our trains and their operation than the average train set purchaser.

Notice I emphasized the word 'guess' a lot here, just my 2 cents worth. May not even be worth that much...

As odd as it may sound. I honestly feel that the last person who really did care died many years ago.... Rest In Peace,  JLC 

Forum dithering aside, when it comes to Lionel trains to whom do we direct our feedback?  NASCAR or Lionel?

Pete

I do think that manufactures have a propensity to listen to their customers as much as they can taking into consideration the fact that decisions must be made that allow them to still stay financially solvent. Specifically, I have made direct product suggestions and they have been favorably answered.

I do not necessarily agree that one manufacturer listens more than another. Each manufacturer faces different challenges based on size and financial strength, so their reaction to requests at times can vary in the eyes of the consumer.

I think Richard Kughn did as well, I don't think he bought Lionel from General Mills because he was looking to make a fortune at it, he already was well off, but simply seemed to love the trains (read a really great case study about Lionel under his realm when I was in Grad school, sad to say I don't have it). Not going to knock the present manufacturers, but to them it is a business where they are trying to maximize profits, Mike Wolf/whoever owns MTH, Jerry Calabrese and the private equity firm who own it are in it as a business more than as hobbyists. 

The answer to your question is marketing 101, how do you read what the customers want/need, and how do you translate that into a product that sells yet doesn't break the bank? It is one of the hardest things to do, because as can be seen on these boards, as Allen alluded to, customers often claim they want X,Y and Z, but really need A. Plus there is also the unreality factor, many on here grumble about the cost of things like command control, that it is too expensive, but what they would want, a scale engine with something like PS3/Legacy that costs under 200 bucks, is not financially viable for a firm more than likely. 

So what it comes down to is a variety of factors, and others have hit on them. They go to places like York and gauge reaction, they float a trial balloon in the form of pre-orders and wait to see if critical mass happens. They probably do read e-mails and look at posts on websites, the fact that people look at websites tells them interest. They look at what competitors are selling and gauge reaction to it as well,they also look at past interest (for example, something like the Legacy Hudson or the BB are based on what others have bought). They probably also look at the scale world (aka also known as alternate markets), to see what goes on there to a certain extent. 

Then, they look at trends in other things. Given the mobile world that is blossoming out there, it doesn't take a marketing genius to realize that mobile control is something quite common...on the other hand, they also realize that a lot of us in the hobby may not be 20 something who eat this stuff up, so they also have to be careful how they go forward, believe me they know the people who see command control and say "feh" (haven't decided that one myself yet. They don't want to alienate whatever their base is, but they also want to attract new people, too, so sometimes they go out on a limb; sometimes it works, they kind of did that with TMCC (which might not have happened, to be honest, if Lionel was still under General Mills, it happened from what I know because Kughn, an enthusiast, was approached by Neil Young, another one). Whichever of the firms introduced integrated track a la fasttrack, while that kind of track was common in HO and N, took a risk...and sometimes you end up with stuff that doesn't sell, the demand wasn't what they expected, and they have to discount it to get rid of it (and potentially, they also probably analyze why it didn't sell...if it was that it was perceived as too expensive, they might find a way to produce something similar a lot cheaper, for example, or might say "hmm, not many people really want a scale model of <pick the most boring, ugly engine in history> and pay 1500 bucks for it".....

And yes, this market being relatively small makes it even more difficult. It is a lot easier to customize in a big market, take a look at cell phones and the variety of offerings is pretty huge, because there are so many users. Car companies can offer a wide range of cars and levels of time, because generally there are enough customers that they can sell it; but when you talk toy trains it is such a small market, with relatively small production runs and demand, that they can't try and come out with a swath of products to please everyone...It is a straddle to do it. 

Like Allan said good luck on any market consensus.

For every person who love command control (me)  there is one who hates it

For every postwar style lover there are those who think they are boring (me)

For every one who wants to hear nothing more than an engine buzzing there are those who want full sound systems (me, unless its a prewar replicate, prewar should not have sound)

You can be sure they do market research, probably a lot of it based on what they hear at shows and what they see other toys doing and of course prior sales.

As a car nut, as well as a train nut, with an interest in the history of both, I find that

Lionel and MTH, with their limited population of customers, offer much more variety,

which I (most) often am not interested in, than the automotive market.  I bought the

last American made pickup, no less, possible, in 2008, and it wasn't available the

way I wanted it nor equipped as the almost antique 1980's one I traded in, nor was

it the make I was shopping for, that had left my market.  Their automobiles have

left my market, with no body styles or equipment I will buy, and I even have to keep

changing makes among imports, some of whom have also, recently, left my market.  So I can't see that the larger automotive, market, which it is, makes for a larger variety.  To me, it appears to have severely shrunken, while train choices have

greatly improved.

I'd like to know who decides to create products like NASCAR trains. Is there really a market for such things, or are they just made because the one of powers that be has an interest in that industry? Would Lionel be better off branching out into a serious HO presence and a European market push than pumping out plastic G gauge and questionable licensed items? I truly wonder who if anyone is listening up there and how product decisions are made. 

First of all, just want to point out that there is quite a difference in "market research" and "what they hear at the shows". True market research takes hundreds of hours in analyzing the existing, and potential markets, doing in-depth interviews and focus groups with each, and then producing cost analyses calculations on customer acquisition and resale to existing customers, etc. It adds up quickly. I have a local client who performs this on a yearly basis, their market footprint being only eastern Massachusetts and the cost is well into six figures.

The reality is, these train companies aren't making the millions in profits some assume, plus many are heavily into engineering and production costs, not to mention debt service. So talking to folks in the field (shows, or forums) along with their gut feel for the market is about as sophisticated as it gets. And as others have pointed out, it is a fickle crowd, with lots of different wants and desires.

Something I find telling is that there was a response from Lionel in about a day to questions/concerns regarding the Penn Central E8 colors, a product that has just been cataloged.

Meanwhile, over on the S Scale forum, there's been a lot of complaints and concerns over on the about the the narrow wheel gauge and "high water" trucks on the American Flyer cylindrical hopper for the past two months without a peep from Lionel.  

Also Lionel hasn't updated their American Flyer Facebook page since December 23rd, 2013, in spite of ES44AC's and said cylindrical hoppers being released since then. 

Guess the Flyer crowd isn't worth the bother.

Rusty

I suspect you may be right as my experience as well ( prior to retiring ) it was important to know what and how the market was trending and adjust accordingly and set up the next fiscal years projected budget, prior to the actual. Guessing was out of the question.

If you were too far off the mark, your employment was in question. 

Since no one knows the proprietary income of any of these companies, it's a guessing game in that regard, even an educated guess is questionable. No doubt on a national basis, based on industry figures, the market is in the millions but how it is divided is impossible to know.

I think the changeover to presales,product cancellations, etc are indicative of an acknowledged unpredictability of where the customers are and whether that is due

to flying blind on instinct or hedging their bet, no one knows.

I would prefer MTH, Lionel or Bachman to answer this basic question..of deciding what is made and in what production quanity. You would think advances in prototype modelling and 3D mold making would bring costs down but I doubt that would be given back in savings to the consumer..as the profitability of X Y or Z comes first to the bottom line.

Still..it remains a mystery despite great guesses here.

Cest La Vie 

It doesn't matter what Lionel, or MTH, or atlas makes, many potential buyer will find something wrong with it. 

If Lionel really listened to the members of this forum and produced a single product that met ALL the wants and desires of the o guague buying population, nobody would buy it. 

I think you have a made good point here!

In a society like ours, we want choices and the new Lionel catalog shows lots of choices.  MTH, Atlas and others also provide a lot of choices. So do companies that provide scenery, etc. 

Secondly, car companies do not lower prices during a downturn.  They raise prices and offer promotions.  Also, they may reduce the amount of cars they make.  They continue to make high price cars that consumers will buy regardless of price and dump lower price, lower profit vehicles.

In a Simpson episode, Homer designed the perfect car that had every imaginable feature.  It was too high a price and of course the company went broke. 

We may not always get what we want, however, most companies understand how to make a profit.  I say keep commenting so the train manufacturers know what we want and like, and let them figure out how to get it to us.

David56

ps this is my opinion.

YES!!! (to the original question)

There's been a "problem" since the 2nd O-gauge/scale manufacturer started producing trains, they've all copied what Lionel had already put out.

How many times have you seen the exact same engine, caboose, or freight car produced, even down to the number on the side of the car?  There's no imagination individuality (thinking outside the box) with these companies.  I had an ACL PS1 boxcar from Lionel and an ACL PS1 boxcar from Atlas with the same number on it!!!

Where's the research in regards to prototypical data?  What's worse, there's historical societies more than willing to provide data to make an item correct, they don't even have to do anything except take the data and use it

With most (all? except maybe 3rd Rail/GGD) companies located north of Washington D.C., I can see the lean towards northeastern RRs, but man, sooner or later you'd think they'd start looking around the rest of the CONUS.Hopefully the move by Lionel to NC will give everyone a taste of southern RRing very soon

That said, I really love my trains (even though most have had to be modified to represent the SAL).  I had an operating session yesterday with all 4 of my steam engines running (a bit noisy in 12x12 room).  I had my 4-6-0 pulling a passenger train while my yard switcher (0-6-0) was sorting cars for delivery using my main freight engine (2-8-2).  While the 2-8-2 was on it's way around the loop, my local switcher (2-8-0) put together a train by pulling cars at industries for the return trip once my 2-8-2 arrived with the train the 0-6-0 had put together.  I did this by myself and can see how a 2 or 3-man crew could be easily used, even in a 12x12 (with 2x14 extension down the side) space.I've never heard of or seen in any box a survey or questionnaire on what we'd like to see next.  If they solicit at all it must be at York and a few other meets/shows.  How much would it cost for someone to get a marketing company to put out a questionnaire?