Just noticed this...could Lionel compete with Menards rolling stock prices?

The true O scale operators are a bit more serious and particular. Most would never be interested in those Menards non detailed old Williams cars. The pricing is reflected in the product. With a few exceptions, we wouldn’t even buy any compressed non detailed Railing cars.

I think the two styles of markets are totally different in many aspects. True O people expect to pay a higher price. If you want a cheap price in 6464 - 027 traditional stuff is all on ebay every day for 8 bucks a car. Most of it these days show non sold completed listings. Same for Atlas O on the other end of the spectrum.

Six pack offerings are a good thing in hoppers because they have different numbers. This will satisfy the people who missed out on the last offerings thinking Weaver would be around for a long time. This happened to me in trying to locate the limited Wood Chip series. So I’m hoping to see them produced again hopefully with detail like the GA series. Weaver 2 bays were poorly designed and need to be scrapped.Those remind me of the old Right Of Way Industries cars. Many advancements since then.

It took me many years to collect a 35 car 3 bay C&O coal hopper train with different numbers. Even with Weaver offering multiple number runs twice, it still wasn’t enough to complete the goal. Atlas only offers 2 number cars, why, no one knows? Only 6 T-Man versions so far. C&O 2X, B&O, WM and Chessie 2x.

Unfortunately for Lionel, most of us have collected these 3 bays through the years already. I would expect an initial surge in sales of these hoppers but eventually it will die off. Same for the wagon tops and wood side short gondolas. Weaver – Joe got out at the right time, Lionscale and Atlas took a gamble attempting in continuing the lines. MTH needs to lower costs and Atlas O has priced themselves out of the 3R market. Menards will do well for years to come in appealing to the majority of train operators and new folks. 

I would say that most of what was said above is true. At some point everyone gets saturated with rolling stock. As to Weaver there are still cars I look for and I buy the occasional cars from Lionel, Atlas or for that fact MTH. For me I have reach the point of just picking and choosing a car that has not been made before. But I also just bought a few Menards cars because I liked the look of the car. I built up some nice unit trains because of Weaver. They were the niche I would go to for that. Miss them. Nobody else does that except Menards. Only time will tell if prices will come down. That would possibly do more to keep the hobby going with new people coming in and making it affordable to many.....................Paul

Menard's can afford to unleash $20 cars (on almost a weekly basis it seems) because the model train part of their business is a VERY small blip on their $8.6 Billion bottom line diverse company that is it's own distributor and retailer.  The seasonal delivery of train stuff to individual stores probably takes up very little space in the truck delivering the normal restocking items.

Lionel's bottom line is considerably lower and has to deal with independent distributors and retailers.

If Lionel and MTH were to try to match Menard's output and prices, the market would saturate much faster than it would expand and would soon collapse under its own weight.

Frankly, Menard's expansion into the HO structure market may be an indication that O gauge sales are slowing.

Rusty

Menard's entry into the O scale hobby has had an impact.  The 'price the market will bare' has changed.  This may affect the 'traditional' runner more than the 'scale' runner but I have a number of their box cars because THEY ARE SCALE and they are well made.  (Menard's box cars are bigger than PRR X-29 cars)  

I feel the impact has been very positive. I was going through boxes in my garage and found a 1993 model train magazine with a full page ad from Lionel show their 'Great' locos......they were awful...a 2-4-0 in a weird blue with a gold bell atop the boiler that was 3 scale fee tall.....how far things have come.  Menard's rolling stock and buildings have injected some excitement, much needed, into the hobby. If Lionel is noticing that's good overall.  

To compare the Lionel 'micro' gondola's to the Menard's  box car is apples and oranges but good to see they have noticed.  

PS....just to show how much has changed.....here is that ad.....

Why would I pay 120 dollars plus S/H and Taxes (when Applicable) for 6 cars, when I could get 24 Flatcars from Menards for 192 dollars plus S/H and Taxes (when Applicable)? Still would buy Menards before Lionel because of Prices.

I think Menard's approach is a bit more exciting - and lets not forget the sweetener deals - nice freebies. For a while you were getting a free flatcar!

It makes it possible for the average guy to bulk up a nice train - and have stuff you can let kids handle without worrying too much.

Rusty Traque posted:

 

Frankly, Menard's expansion into the HO structure market may be an indication that O gauge sales are slowing.

Rusty

 

I don't think Menard's entry into HO structures is due to slowing O sales. Their manufacturing partner must have some capacity left, Menard's sees that it can easily compete with Woodland in pre-built category, the engineering is in hand......just reduce it from O to HO.  I feel just the opposite.....it may be Menard's is testing the waters of HO after much success in O.  Where can they grab market share in HO and just how big is the market for this type item in a area of the hobby that is VERY different than O.  Smart business in my old bank analyst mind.  

Now darn it - they just changed the promo again - now back to a rebate - which I think are credit for in-store purchases - not as good if there is no Menards nearby.

Spent too much time pining over which car to pick!

Are these Weaver hoppers?  Saw these on MrMuffin's website this morning.

Lionel 3-17160 - ACF 4-Bay Covered Hopper "Chicago & North Western" (6 Pack)

7https://mrmuffinstrains.com/collections/lionel_2017_volume1/products/3-17160

Regards.

Swafford

Before I found out how nicely detailed true O scale was, I used to buy those nice Atlas Industrial Rail cars for 17 bucks each. Back then I was blown away at the cheap price. Then RMT came along. Those two lines were the best non-scale detailed cars out there. RMT offered both scale and non-scale K-Line re-issues but most folks never realized the difference. Menards box cars appear to look like the old 6464 Williams’s non-scale jobs.

There is a big difference between O Scale and O Gauge.

Why do folks insist the Menard's box cars are NOT scale???? Are they using the term to say they are not highly detailed?? Because the box cars (the only Menard's cars I am talking about) SCALE out bigger than a SCALE Pennsylvania Railroad X-29 class box car. I say bigger in that they are within a actual 1/8" (bigger) than the builders plans I have for a X-29. Because the details are molded in or simplified does NOT make them semi-scale......that is a dimensional statistic.   I think some folks do not like the Menard's affect that these cars are causing......upsetting the Lionel cart as such.  I like the competition. Also a factor may be Menard's stepped up to a challenge I issued about 5 years ago for decent box cars at a great price. Here is a photo I used about the challenge and I think I still have scars from the beating I got as to why a die cast car was $9 but no $20 box cars.....

What is the width, height and length of the Menard's box cars?

This is a cut and paste I did on a 2016 box car post. These are scale dimensions of the Menard's box car.....if I get time I will pull a box car and get size in inches.

Length over roof walk ends

Menard's   42' 3"

PRR             42' 3"

Width of car body

Menard's   9' 2"

PRR           8' 11"

Height rail head to roof walk

Menard's   13' 9"

PRR  13' 3"

Wheelbase center to center

Menard's 31' 6"

PRR  32' 3"

Swafford posted:

Are these Weaver hoppers?  Saw these on MrMuffin's website this morning.

Lionel 3-17160 - ACF 4-Bay Covered Hopper "Chicago & North Western" (6 Pack)

7https://mrmuffinstrains.com/collections/lionel_2017_volume1/products/3-17160

Regards.

Swafford

 

 

They look like Weaver....and the price is about at the Weaver cars at Lionel. 

If it's Lionscale it's made in USA it's Weaver......ask them!! 

Menard's products are great value (I have one NYC hopper).  But until they produce locomotives with digital control/remotes, and similar products that presumably require significant technical development staffing (power supplies?), they are benefiting from their very low overhead and are not comparable to Lionel (and MTH) in their business model.  Be interesting to see if they commit the resources needed to become a full line model railroad supplier.  I'm guessing they will not, and will rely on Lionel for sets and locomotives.

I hope they stay away from a proprietary locomotive. It's a drain on resources and adds a HUGE level of support.  If they really wanted to sell a locomotive....team with Bachmann, develop a DCC base command and/or conventional system and Menard's can have unique road names from the Bacnmann/Williams locomotives. And let Bachmann do the support reapir. 

I just like Menards as the cars are great yard fillers.  Colorful and for me, who cares if they are slightly smaller or larger!  Visitors see the cars but could care less who made them, and unless you are an operator with a sharp eye, you can't tell the difference, especially if Menards cars are buried between rows of "real authentic" Lionel/MTH/Atlas/etc scale rolling stock.  I look forward to Menards offerings then order several at time to save costs of running across town to store.

Each to his/her own, I guess.

The Menards boxcars are scale.  I think the confusion lies in the fact that some of the rolling stock they offer is not scale and some of it is. 

Example:  They have 2 types of flatcars, one version is Standard O, the other is traditional.  Their hoppers (covered and non-covered) are not completely scale, but are really close.  The 3 dome tanker cars are not scale (at least from what I've been told) and the boxcars are.

I can see where the confusion is stemming from.  But regardless, at $17 to $20 per car, you really can't go wrong.  Here's some pics just to show how nice these cars are.  The BN car is a Williams, the Chicago & NW is the Mendard's version.  Both are really nice.  The Menard's car costs about $17 brand new and the Williams version (on ebay) ranges from $30 to $50 used.

But as mentioned above, the ridiculous price of rolling stock is going to be an issue for the O gauge world in the next 10 years.  Demographically speaking, I don't see a lot of younger folks getting into O scale (probably because of the price).  They are all gravitating towards HO.  I mean come on guys, $60 to $99 for one piece of rolling stock?  It's insane.  You guys have been doing this for many years and have probably gotten used to the high prices, but those on the outside looking in have taken notice.    

I've only been into the railroading hobby since October.  I actually decided to go HO (because of the prices) but kinda got forced into O scale.  My layout is 8 feet up so yeah, size mattered here.  If the O scale rolling stock was priced at say $30 to $50 for a new piece, I wouldn't have even hesitated.  I could have swallowed that very easily. 

Just my 2 cents.....

Ps.. If anybody has the Menard's Burlington Northern Boxcar (or any other BN stock from Menards) please post a pic of it next to any other brands BN rolling stock.  I want to see if the colors are close.  I really, really want a set of them but the color looks off....

I like the Menards cars because if my 3-year old grand-son grabs one off the table I won't have the BIG one. I know there are some that can't be anything but the "it has to be and look real" but for me it has got to be fun!!!!!!!!!!!! So the Menards cars are Great for the $$$$$

AMCDave posted:

I feel the impact has been very positive. I was going through boxes in my garage and found a 1993 model train magazine with a full page ad from Lionel show their 'Great' locos......they were awful...a 2-4-0 in a weird blue with a gold bell atop the boiler that was 3 scale fee tall.....how far things have come.  Menard's rolling stock and buildings have injected some excitement, much needed, into the hobby. If Lionel is noticing that's good overall. 

I personally like the engines on this spread, and wouldn't mind seeing them again (with modifications, of course... namely eliminating said bell and giving a better wheel arrangement) on the low end, as these are and were inexpensive to purchase. Hard to find these days for my own use, but I have 2-3 that I either run or have modified to use as dummies in my own trains.

Menards, if y'all could throw an inexpensive engine of some sort out there for all of us non scalers, that would be great.

El Classico posted:

 

 

I personally like the engines on this spread, and wouldn't mind seeing them again (with modifications, of course... namely eliminating said bell and giving a better wheel arrangement) on the low end, as these are and were inexpensive to purchase. Hard to find these days for my own use, but I have 2-3 that I either run or have modified to use as dummies in my own trains.

 

Menards, if y'all could throw an inexpensive engine of some sort out there for all of us non scalers, that would be great.

These are not Lionel.....they are MTH....but I think they look much better and I have 4-5 of them....all under $100. If you are a Lionel only type I understand if you do not feel these are a option....just showing....

This one is a 4-6-0 but the 2-6-0 is the same loco. And the starter set 2-8-0 is great too.....I bought two w/o PS-3 boards for under $50 each!! 

I had started stripping them before I took photos....

TrainGuyMcGee posted:

The Menards boxcars are scale.  I think the confusion lies in the fact that some of the rolling stock they offer is not scale and some of it is. 

Example:  They have 2 types of flatcars, one version is Standard O, the other is traditional.  

 

There are actually three types--the two you mentioned (10" and 14.5") and an 11.5" version. Not too many people are aware of it since it has never been offered without a load--only with tanker trailers, scale-ish sized trucks like the cement mixer and beverage delivery truck, and now the ISO tank containers. It has a wood deck and I believe it is also a scale 10' wide like the long flatcar.

---PCJ

I am waiting and hoping that Menard's re-stocks the weathered Union Pacific boxcars on their website. They are listed as sold out online but could be available at their stores. I am in New Jersey, no Menard's here. Closest one is in Ohio.

Please, Menard's, produce more of these. I want a 6 pack of them to run. ( not to drink a 6 pack).

I'm new to the hobby, and I see rolling stock that I want HUGELY at the hobby shop.   Coca Cola Christmas car.   80.00.   Two beer cars I would love to have.  80.00 each.   For 1.5 times the cost of a single car I can buy an 8 pack of Southern boxcars from Menards with sequential numbering that would look fine on my tracks!  Can't wait for my Menards train station and hobby shop to get here.  Then I just may get to order those Southern boxcars!!!!  

I really like the Canadian N covered hoppers, Im just a bit hesitant bc they measured 3.38 inches tall....maybe I am wrong but that is a good bit shorter than the hoppers I have now..wondering if it would be very noticeable on a long train