L-GIRDER OR GRID BENCHWORK?

My vote, being a lousy carpenter, would be for Mianne benchwork.  

 

That what I used 12 years ago and I would use it again, hands down.

If you do a search for L-girder, dated February 7, 2014, there is a good discussion of L girder VS standard benchwork plus a recommended book on bench work construction.
Ray.

Our layout is 23 ft. by 36 ft. and we used 2/4's in a wall style construction. Result, very few posts and a small army can stand on it.

Will you have to climb on top or walk around on it during construction? Or is it strictly around the room style?

Way back in 1979, Kalmbach published 'How to build Model Railroad Benchwork' by Linn Westcott and I would suggest you find a copy and read it. It discusses both systems but ends up advocating the 'L Girder Method' as the preferred.  That has always been my choice and I find it very versatile.  With that system it's easy to build above and below the table top which makes developing interesting scenery effects easier. It also makes for a very sturdy table. 

 

 

 

 

I'm actually headed down to the basement today to re-construct my Mianne foot print

couldn't agree more with Barry.

I am using both methods, grid for yards and L-Girder for rises and the mountain division.

 

Jack

To each his own -  I'm building my layout right at this moment using L-girder and so far so good:  https://ogrforum.com/t...11#42820927139787211

 

 

If built correctly, strength should not be an issue. I can walk all over my structure. I cannot attest to performance long-term - but I like the system - I like that I can build up or down - and I like the ability to change on the fly.  A grid can't do that quite as easily.   

a combined format of both methods can be beneficial - yards with grid, everything else with L girder.  I just prefer sticking with one style. 

 

I used 1x4s supporting 1x2s for the L girders, 1x4s for the Joists, and 1x3s for the majority of the legs  (1x3s are only a $1.79 at my big box).  Every joint is glued with PL 375 (Adhesive is a must, no matter which approach you take) and everything is screwed together (don't use nails).  Where L girders meet, I used flat metal brackets - bent in whatever direction was necessary - to hold them rigid together (these are available in decking at your big box store).  My cookie cutter top is 3/4" cabinet grade plywood - I would not cheap on that.  My local big box had it on special deal $35 a sheet - only $5 more than the cheapo.  

I'm with Jack, and use both. L-girder gives a lot of flexibility, especially when you need to shift a joist to put a lake in!  For large flat areas, grid is fine.

 

Personally, I use plywood and avoid partical board like the plague. I find partical board too prone to splinter, a pain to drive nails into when you really need to use a nail, and it sags more than plywood over time.

It is double dog one with 30" isle down thru layout angled from entry door at end of room. Only access will be from isle, and under table.  Don't plan to get on table after second layer up.  Also didn't mention,  Would like in FUTURE maybe add line under main level.

 

I have requested quote from MIANNE several times, but have not received one sine April???

I have requested quote from MIANNE several times, but have not received one sine April???

Exactly how are you requesting the quote?

 

I've worked wit Tim foley several times, on my own and other layouts, and I've always found him to be extremely responsive. He couldn't stay in business if he wasn't responsive.

"Any input to which type of benchwork is best to use, what type of materials, screws, and what type of top(plywood vs particle board)??  Is one type of benchwork quieter, stronger than the other?? "

 

   I base it on what type of scenery will be constructed on it. If it's mountains and canyons the L girder type works well as the main girder can be set below the canyon or river bottom elevation and rises added to get up to track level. If it's just a big flat scene like a yard or city block then a sheet material table top over grid framing is easier. Don't use cheap particle though as it will swell up and come apart if it gets too wet. I generally prefer 5 ply fir or other exterior grade plywood then add a layer of something smooth over it. Depending on the thickness needed and the effect desired the smoothing layer can be either thin sheet foam or some kind of plaster material such as sculptamold  or even sheet rock and putty....DaveB

I use plywood rather then particle board because plywood lasts longer and it don't have harmful chemicals in it. Particle board has formaldehyde(embalming fluid) in  it, usually at 33%, glue around 33 % and sawdust 33%. I worked at Basset Furniture in Dublin GA for a bout a year and so I know what is in particle board.

 

Marine grade plywood is good for an area with high humidity, however very expensive. You can homasote if you can locate it.

 

Lee Fritz

 There are a lot of factors to consider here including cost, your skill level, and your time.

  If at all possible use screws because the vibration will eventually loosen the nails.

  I also would recommend a higher grade plywood instead of particle board. Moisture will eventually cause the particle board to sag and or break even in dry climates. There will be a plumbing event or an open window while it is raining, plywood will dry out particle board will be ruined. Also use a thick 1/2" or more instead of 1/4" or less to prevent drumming when you run trains and to support more weight.  

  I had to build a new layout this past winter. I did cost estimates using 2x4" and 1x3" like I had done on previous layouts then compared it to Mianne, surprisingly Mianne was very competitive in price even after shipping.

  Mianne is run by Tim Foley who did an excellent job of filling my order.  He lives in Massachusetts and the whole New England area was having trouble with deep snow, so I expected delays but he got it shipped on time and it arrived safely in sunny Texas.

  If you follow his directions ( I didn't) everything will go together well. It took me about ten hours with a few false starts to assemble the whole framework.  There is a big learning curve and if I had to do it again I could do it in less than half that time.

  If you ever have to move, the framework will come apart easily and can be moved easily to your new residence. It is also easy to modify if you need to change or add a track plan in the future.

Douglas 

I built two layouts with L girder as it seemed easier,  I never screwed the uprights which allowed me to shift them when I added drop wires.  So far so good after 12+ years and one home move (I Sawzal the top layer of wood and scenery, had movers carry out the four sections, disassembled the L girder base sections that were carted out.  Reversed the procedure at new house, spent month repairing trackwork and scenery and back in business.

L-Girder is the best for a layout your size.  Many methods are good for smaller layouts.  My L Girder was started 33 years ago yesterday and is as solid and true as when I built it.  Don't short cut the benchwork.  Do it right.

I would use 2x4's with plywood, I was a carpenter for 18 plus years, there's nothing stronger than 2x4's and plywood. My layout can hold up a crew of guys. Also don't use nails, use coarse thread screws.

 

Alex

I have met him at York and have heard good things.  Gave him RR-track plan at April York and he said he would work up a quote.  I did not get a quote, sent emails and no response.  I finally called about 3 weeks ago, he apoligized for not getting back to me, had questions about layout which I provided answers.  He said he would send something in a couple days. That was about 3 weeks ago.  I sent another email earllier this week.  Still no response.  I was really intertesed in using his product if cost was in line.  I can't figure out why he is not been responding. I don't want to bug him.  He seems like a very nice guy in person and on the phone. I can't imagine anything I've done to make him not respond.

Alex, L Girder can hold up the guys and layouts.  I am with you big time on no nails.  The Mianne bench work is also a great product.  I have never seen iot on a big layout but I can state it is well designed and is very strong.  I am not a 2 X 4 fan as they will walk and warp over time.  Strong they are without a doubt.  The L girder is two section of wood screwed (and glued) together and less likely to have an issue with bending or warping.  The joist construction that sits on the L Girder can hold up a house.  Joist and girder construction,  It is used in buildings and bridges.   

 

I would like to thank everyone for their responses.  I ordered the book HOW TO BUILD MODEL RAILROAD BWNCHWORK from eBay as someone suggested.  I am not a carpenter, but may give it a try if no other alternative becomes available.  I was hoping to have benchwork completed by June.  Having decided on using ATLAS O track, the availability issue has set me back.  The earliest I may be able to get track may be end of July, most likely later.  I am hoping to get benchwork started and hope the track becomes available.

From your responses it appears L-girder is the way to go. Thanks again.

We used a combination of girders and open grid with nothing but 2x4's. The nice thing about a 2x4 for a girder is that it's wide enough on edge that you don't need to form the "L" with another board. Walking, and crawling on top of the layout during construction was a "must" for us, so everything was 2x4's. Besides, they are half the price as a 1x4  

W&W,

For what its worth, I used a better grade of pine lumber to get straighter boards and was seasoned and less likely to warp.  You can use cheaper "contractor grade" lumber but you may/not be satisfied with end results.

As my layout was flat no risers, I used a better grade of 3/4 plywood finished on one side (forget what the grading was called, AC?) for smoother surface.  Yes, I could fill holes and surface cracks, but for few dollars more it was worth it as layout is still flat as proverbial pancake.

Mianne benchwork is a very good choice.

 

Disclosure: I am not soliciting work!

 

IMO, I would never use dimensional lumber for bench work framing.  Too many variables.

 

Slow growth Artic Birch/Maple 3/4" shop grade is a nice compromise material.

 

You will get thirteen 23/32" x 3 1/2" X 8' strips per 4x8 sheet.

 

Also I stopped using assembly fasteners,  Adhesive only.  We have built 150 MPH  hydroplanes using glue only.   w/o any fasteners w/o any structure failure.

 

I built in modular fashion and used machine hex bolts to join components.

 

Lynn Wescott's book is an excellent primer.  You will not go wrong with Mianne.

 

 

L girder is very low skill friendly; you don't have to have precise cuts, angles and joints. It's all held together with screws.  Some wood, glue, screws, a few clamps, tape measure, saw and a power drill/screwdriver and you're in business.  Easiest DIY method there is. 

A 2x2 leg properly braced in L-girder construction can support 2000 pounds. I built my 20x16 U shaped layout using Linn's book as a guide and feel it was much easier than a grid top. You can support 20' on four legs. That sure makes it easier working underneath later. I already have 400' of wire under the top, and that is just for track and switches. Next winter I tackle lighting and signaling with the accompanying relays. I haven't had to drill a hole to route wires, either. If you decide to look at L-girder, I have a copy of the book I would sell, also. I posted construction pictures you can look at if you search my posts. Of course these are just my opinions and offered to help you in your decision. Best of luck to you and have fun. To me, the building is 80% of the enjoyment.

John, where is the real upstate NY?  All my pals are in the Falls/Buffalo/Grand Island  area.  Just curious.

Marty,

    Glad you asked. Technically I am in Western NY. I grew up in Niagara County and currently live in Genesee, but there are millions that consider Poughkeepsie to be Upstate NY. I just like to clarify that there is more beyond that big city, even if our numbers aren't offering much clout. You can now include me in that group of pals; thanks for askin.

Why Schenectady NY of course!

Mianne bench work is all I will use.  I love the reconfigure-ability.  I must have changed my mind 10 times before I got the shape I wanted in my space (30x30 room, 30x24 layout).  And I can re-config as I grow the layout or change it up with a screwdriver (no glues).  And putting it together is FAST!!!  Working with Tim Foley there has been just awesome, very helpful, supportive, and quick shipping.

 

FWIW.

 

Don, they get more snow than is needed. 

I prefer L-girder construction with 1/2" plywood. Has held up very well over the years

I feel the same way about Mianne, great stuff. I can't do what I used to be able to and didn't want to spend all my time making sawdust. With my first 6'x16' kit from Mianne, I was ready to lay track in less than a day. I am sold.

I use Siever's...

http://www.sieversbenchwork.com/

 

Strong, easily modifiable and very easy and fast to use.

Your question is really a good one. Mianne Benchwork is very nicely finished and easily put together. However, its probably a bit pricy. If you choose to build this layout framework yourself, You will need a nice electric Mitre Saw, several cordless drills, a good jig saw, and nice hand saw, and portable skil saw, many clamps of various sizes and shapes....etc. So, by the time you purchase all of these tools, then wood, lumber, glues, and Yes, 50 pounds of drywall screws....I would look at Mianne Benchwork.  For Plywood, I would go 5/8 thick, well braced underneath. 

Now, on top of the plywood, I would suggest Homasote for sound deadening...I then suggest cork roadbed under the track.....Wow...

Yes, after reading the book mentioned, written by Linn Wescott, all of these tools and suggestions will come into view....Building the foundation with good lumber is going to help you for years to follow. Oh, you will need several Levels for getting everything to work correctly....Good Thread.... Good luck building your dream Model Railroad.

I have used both.  In the early '70s I built grid with 2x4s because that was all I knew.  It worked fine.  Before building my next layout starting in '85, I bought the Westcott book, and used L girder.  I learned the lesson rrman Sam wrote earlier.  Buy the best lumber for the L's.  Mine twisted somewhat, but still worked out okay.  I then built what someone at Kalmbach called Dominoes, just 2 ft by 4 ft modules and set them on the old L girder, because I didn't want to tear down another layout if I had to move again.  I took those modules with me on two moves, then discarded them.  That idea works out, if you think you may move.  If not, them L girder as Wesctcott describes.  My next layout will be in a 12 x 12 room, and I am planning to use shelves attached to the wall except where I have to cross two doorways.  I'll figure that out once the last daughter moves out and takes all her stuff with her. 

 

As far as Mianne goes, I would buy it from them if I had the funds. 

Boyce thanks for liking my topic reply.

But I no longer posting to OGR, found better forums.

Good bye

 

I've also used Sievers. Very satisfied. Real nice wood.

 

Made a large purchase of it in the early 1990's. Modules of it has been hanging in an unfinished garage ..... humid summers and cold winters ..... no warping, etc at all.

Thank you, Sam.

Gee, I'm sorry to see you go though!