Legacy - TMCC Mode or Cab1 Mode for TMCC engines

I don't know if my questions are in the correct discussion?

I only have Conventional and TMCC engines and no Legacy engines at present. A few Lionel starter sets are of interest and include a plastic hand controller.

Suppose I decide to purchase a Legacy engine. Is it possible that I may be able to continue to use my original TMCC Command PowerMaster and CAB1 without going overboard to buy more equipment?

Here are the items that I currently own: Train Master Control and the Command Base, and the CAB1 remote with the antenna. I suppose that with this essential equipment, I will not be able to use Legacy engines?

My Command base and remote are gray-colored; I see that others are blue-colored, including the remote is blue without an antenna. Another device consists of a remote that rests in a tray and is labeled: Legacy.

For me to run Legacy, is it possible to purchase the blue Legacy Power master and continue to use my gray controller with the antenna? Because I don't know if I would be limited? Or do I need the blue-colored controller without the antenna? And is there anything else that I would require? For example, is it possible to continue using the gray-colored Command box?

There's a new Lionel CAB 3 featured in the catalog, and it's shaped like the **** Gate Bridge; other than the expense of the item, what is the difference?

Here are some YouTube Links that sparked my interest, and perhaps you may be able to help?

Last but not least, what is the purpose of an LCS Module and is a TPC necessary?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbFKB_FTbeM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gw1mKpYVu0

You can operate Legacy locomotives just fine using your gray Command Base and your Cab-1 controller.

Hi Bob,

Thank you and your reply is helpful.

What is the reason why Lionel labels their products as Legacy?

@Lionel8 posted:

Hi Bob,

Thank you and your reply is helpful.

What is the reason why Lionel labels their products as Legacy?

Because they have Legacy features that can only be fully accessed using Legacy.

Legacy is backwards compatible to TMCC commands, so you can run one, limited to the commands that exist under TMCC. In order to add more commands and features, they had to create Legacy which is a different format and that's why using a Legacy remote with a TMCC engine doesn't unlock Legacy features because that engine being TMCC only doesn't understand them.

In short yes your original (grey) cab-1 and base will operate a LEGACY locomotive.

LEGACY is basically the second iteration of TMCC it was actually originally marketed as TMCC II

while you can run a LEGACY locomotive you do loose a lot of the LEGACY specific features such as quill-able whistle

also just as a FYI the Cab-1L (blue in color) works just like an original cab-1 slightly more refined has a poor man’s ability for quillable whistle and only talks to the LEGACY base-2 or the new BASE-3

FWIW, I'll admit joining the hobby circa 2018, I too had to learn these names, and to me Legacy in my IT world meant the old system.

Conventional: the oldest way of operating trains by varying the voltage on the track. Additionally Whistle DC offset modifying the AC waveform was added, and then later opposite DC polarity offset bell.

TMCC- AKA Command Control- added circa 1995.

Legacy-added circa December 2007- the next generation of command control features. It's capable of transmitting backwards compatible TMCC commands but when set to Legacy for a given ID it then sends the more advanced Legacy command format that TMCC engines cannot understand. Again, understand this is on a per ID setting, such that it defaults to CAB style commands, and the user can choose in the CAB2 remote to display TMCC icons, or even Legacy, however, Legacy setting won't work on a TMCC only engine.

Hi Guys,

I appreciate your valuable input.

I suppose the Lionel Ready to Run sets that have the enclosed hand controller are not Legacy? And those starter sets should work with CAB1 and TMCC?

To answer your last question, you need to be more specific.  Lionel, in the last decade, has added what I would refer to as a "starter" command control system identified by the "Lionchief" moniker.  All, or most, of these sets will come with a hand controller.  However, there are now variations of Lionchief; some of those variations will operate in multiple ways including a Lionchief controller, bluetooth (with an app on a smart phone), or the TMCC/Legacy combo.  In fact, some Lionchief engines no longer come with a separate Lionchief controller.

Chuck

@Lionel8 posted:

Hi Guys,

I appreciate your valuable input.

I suppose the Lionel Ready to Run sets that have the enclosed hand controller are not Legacy? And those starter sets should work with CAB1 and TMCC?

Any locomotive that came with the LC remote is not Legacy.  Those would be either Lionchief or Lionchief Plus models, neither of those had Legacy capability.  Anything that came with the LC remote will NOT run with TMCC or Legacy.

The train I'm referring to is a General Engine Disney theme set. All I know is from a YouTuber that put up a video showing the train in action and a picture of the box. Indeed, the contents include LionChief remote control system, LVC, and Bluetooth to verify your previous reply.
I don't know what LVC means?

The Youtuber said the set is not a typical train where a wire connects from a transformer to the track. Instead, the wire plugs directly from the wall and to the track piece.

The situation is muddy because I'm considering the best way to integrate old and new.
For instance, I watched a YouTuber, and he had a line-up of the various LionChief handheld controllers next to his layout. And I thought that he said he was able to pair the separate controllers into one—my mistake. Bummer, I cannot use the CAB1.

Secondly, in referencing the power to track piece, I was at a local Lionel Hobby Store, and the clerk said a ZW would be an overload for today's trains. So I need to purchase a new transformer because the new starter sets can not sustain the strength of a ZW's power supply, resulting in engine failure. Is that true?

Moreover, one Lionel YouTube covering electrical work by Lionel's Mike Reagan said that the new Lionel transformers produce a Chopped Sine Wave. How come?

And is Lionel using transformers with a Chopped Sine Wave to prevent damage? (I'm only familiar with Sine Wave.) But this particular set does not have a transformer. And should I be cautioned that integrating any transformer, old or new, will damage the train and voice chip? Because the train makes unique station stop announcements and that's the attraction that has me hooked.

Please help me understand this.

@Lionel8 posted:

For instance, I watched a YouTuber, and he had a line-up of the various LionChief handheld controllers next to his layout. And I thought that he said he was able to pair the separate controllers into one—my mistake. Bummer, I cannot use the CAB1.

You can use the orange LC Universal Controller for all the LC, LC+, and LC+ 2.0 locomotives, probably what he was talking about.

@Lionel8 posted:

Secondly, in referencing the power to track piece, I was at a local Lionel Hobby Store, and the clerk said a ZW would be an overload for today's trains. So I need to purchase a new transformer because the new starter sets can not sustain the strength of a ZW's power supply, resulting in engine failure. Is that true?

That's a total crock!  Tons of people use the PW-ZW on their modern layouts all the time.  The only thing you should do is add a modern circuit breaker or fuse in the output power connection for any postwar transformer.

@Lionel8 posted:

Moreover, one Lionel YouTube covering electrical work by Lionel's Mike Reagan said that the new Lionel transformers produce a Chopped Sine Wave. How come?

And is Lionel using transformers with a Chopped Sine Wave to prevent damage? (I'm only familiar with Sine Wave.) But this particular set does not have a transformer. And should I be cautioned that integrating any transformer, old or new, will damage the train and voice chip? Because the train makes unique station stop announcements and that's the attraction that has me hooked.

Correct, it's much cheaper to modulate power with electronic control to use a chopped waveform than to try to synthesize a pure sine wave.  It all comes down to cost.  The only modern electronic transformer that actually does synthesize a pure sine wave is the MTH Z4000, and it's priced to match.

In general, you'll have less operational issues with pure sine waves, but most modern trains will run fine on a chopped waveform.

Dear gunrunner john,

I never considered MTH's Z-4000 because I did not know the product and believed the ZW would suffice. However, thanks to your description, I appreciate the model more and always liked the amp meters built into the front panel.

I have a question about Pure Sine Waves. When Lionel created the TPC 400 (Track Powered Controller) for TMCC, was the TPC's purpose of making a Pure Sine Wave? I don't own a TPC and never understood its value. Is a TPC a valuable component for powering engines, primarily because of my related inquires?

In speaking with an LCCA Member, he believes that Lionel is developing a new Z- line transformer and an estimated cost of about 1G?
If so, I'm guessing that Lionel would update the product based on MTH's Z-4000.

The TPC varies track voltage output with a Triac - producing chopped sine wave.  The TPCs allow wireless control of conventional engines using a CAB1 (or CAB1L, or CAB2).  A CABx base is necessary to provide the serial output to control the TPC.

If you have MTH PS-1 locos and don't have a Z4000 with its programming button, TPC provides quick voltage changes necessary to program PS-1 using the clink clank sequences.

The Lionel's Powermaster is a better option to TPCs these days.

@Lionel8 posted:

Dear gunrunner john,

I never considered MTH's Z-4000 because I did not know the product and believed the ZW would suffice. However, thanks to your description, I appreciate the model more and always liked the amp meters built into the front panel.

I have a question about Pure Sine Waves. When Lionel created the TPC 400 (Track Powered Controller) for TMCC, was the TPC's purpose of making a Pure Sine Wave? I don't own a TPC and never understood its value. Is a TPC a valuable component for powering engines, primarily because of my related inquires?

In speaking with an LCCA Member, he believes that Lionel is developing a new Z- line transformer and an estimated cost of about 1G?
If so, I'm guessing that Lionel would update the product based on MTH's Z-4000.

As previously stated, the TPC was simply a method of having remote control of the track voltage using the TMCC remote, it still produces a chopped waveform.

As for Lionel producing a new transformer, I tend to doubt it, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.  Since MTH is still producing the Z4000, I don't think any Lionel product would be based on the Z4000.

@Lionel8 posted:

I have a question about Pure Sine Waves. When Lionel created the TPC 400 (Track Powered Controller) for TMCC, was the TPC's purpose of making a Pure Sine Wave? I don't own a TPC and never understood its value. Is a TPC a valuable component for powering engines, primarily because of my related inquires?

In speaking with an LCCA Member, he believes that Lionel is developing a new Z- line transformer and an estimated cost of about 1G?
If so, I'm guessing that Lionel would update the product based on MTH's Z-4000.

The purpose of a TPC was covered. Keep in mind that they use a TRIAC so they basically will make a modified sine wave. (Edit see following post) The new LEGACY PowerMaster has MOSFETs and this actually allows you to use a pure sine transformer and still get a pure sine wave out of it

As far as a new transformer I would kinda doubt of a completely new transformer. They already have a ZW-L but I wouldn’t be surprised if they had to change some stuff up due to component shortages/ part obsolescence. With any luck they might make it pure sine wave

@zhubl posted:

The new LEGACY PowerMaster has MOSFETs and this actually allows you to use a pure sine transformer and still get a pure sine wave out of it

Uhh... no.  It still produces a chopped waveform.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Uhh... no.  It still produces a chopped waveform.

Whoops it does 😳

I was always under the impression it did

A couple of points just to try and clarify everything dumped in this thread:

1)Conventional lionel trains operated via varying the voltage to the track, usually via the handles. Reverse was handled via interrupting power to the track, whistle was superimposed DC. So to make the engine go faster or slower, you are varying the voltage.

2)In 1993 or thereabouts, Lionel came up with TMCC command control. It sends a signal over the ground in house wiring, that contains commands the engine can understand. With TMCC operation, the track voltage is constant (like 18v),  command boards in the engine get a command from a control (the cab 1 in your case), and varies the speed of the engine by internally changing the voltage. Again, track voltage is constant.

They also created a module called the TPC (track power control), that could vary the track voltage (so it would have 18 v going into it) via the TMCC command system. The TMCC remote could talk to the TPC (I don't remember if it was hardwired to the TMCC base). Using a TPC, therefore, you can run a conventional engine and the TPC would minic a transformer, it can vary voltage to the track, change direction, whistle. Note that in this mode a command control engine would likely not work very well, because it wants 18 v, so running a conventional engine and a TMCC one on the same track wouldn't work very well.

4)around 2006'ish, they came up with the Legacy system. The legacy system command space was much larger (ie the number of commands it could send/receive). I forget the number, but Legacy supported a way lot more. It allowed for advanced features that TMCC could not support because it ran out of command space from what I recall. Legacy is a superset of TMCC, so Legacy command system can control TMCC engines. A TMCC base 1 can also control legacy engines, just won't be able to control advanced stuff, as others said.

They also have the powermaster unit, that is the successor to the TPC. A powermaster has fixed voltage into it, and the tmcc/legacy base can talk to it to vary voltage, change direction, etc. It is not hardwired, a powermaster is like an engine on the track, the command base can address it using the same legacy broadcast the engines read. Like the TPC, operating a conventional engine using this and a command engine on the same track won't work well because of the varying voltage.

5)In the last 10 years Lionel introduced a new form of command control, called Lionchief. It was not legacy/tmcc based, it had its own remote control paired to the engine. The original lionchief could only operate using the control, it didn't support conventional operation ie track voltage. The remote was unique to the engine. Like prior command control, it uses fixed voltage to the track.  It was really designed for use in train sets as a way to allow use of command control without the complexity /cost of Legacy since the remote was included, and all you needed was 18 v to the track for this to work.

This evolved, lionchief + allows conventional operation. Lionel then came out with a universal remote that can operate up to 3 lionchief engines (I think it is 3).

They came out then with lionchief 2.0. This allows using the remote (I was wondering why the unit I bought didn't have the remote!), it also can be controlled using the Lionel app on phones/smart devices via bluetooth connectivity, it also can be controlled from the legacy command base as well (I don't think TMCC will work with it,but not sure).

6)With ZW, Lionel has a current generation, the ZW-L. It is a modern transformer, has the quick blow circuit breakers built in, and has 620 watts power distributed on 4 channels (the only ZW was 275 theoretically, probably more like 190 output side. One nice feature it has is that all 4 channels have the equivalent of powermaster built in, which the legacy base can address and change the output voltage to the track. So rather than buy a separate powermaster, it is built into all 4 channels.

The downside is the cost, it is close to 1k these days. I am still kicking myself, could have had it for like 630 on a labor say sale just before the price soared.....ah well.

And yes, you can use a traditional ZW, as others have said you will want to put a fast blow breaker or fuse on the power to the track (there have been a ton of threads on here about this topic, easy to find in search), and you might also want to put a TVS (a kind of diode) across the hot/return going to the track (this suppresses voltage surges, the way a good power strip does), it is there to suppress transient voltage surges. Again, if you do a search on here for ZW or TVS, you will find a ton of info. It isn't that the ZW outpowers the engines, it is that the ZW if you have a short has a breaker that is slow and is designed to protect the transformer, hence the need for an external fast blow breaker or fuse.