LionChief no traditional transformer. Enough "juice" for expansion ??

H.P.,

Thanks for reply. Yep, creosote is tar from burning of wood or coal, in south use to be used to treat wooden power poles(kind you see along road) as a preservative. You may not be familiar with Lionel LionChief system. It doesn't require a box/brick transformer, so no danger in harming the system. It uses a piece of Fastrack that accepts male plug from wall outlet. My question was if in system expansion, a traditional brick/box transformer would be needed to provide power for additional track and powered/lighted accessories. Seems my engine is being drained of power do to track expansion, few powered accessories, probably needs a cx 80 or smaller accessory transformers added to track at certain points.

The transformer sold with the set is only 36 watts and really is designed for just the original equipment alone.

Thanks Rob. Appreciate your reply. Yep, i know how to attach it and have been running my LionChief for several months now. My question was about track expansion. I have added some track-switch, spur, 2 lighted accessories. Now my engine sees to stall out and I believe it is because the dc wall power pack cant supply enough juice for extra track(more distance from power source) and accessories. As you say, maybe limited to LionChief and 4-6 cars. I believe I need a traditional"brick transformer like cx80. But I think if  I use that I must not also power the track by the dc wall pack. One or other, but not both.

thanks again.

My LionChief is powered as below dc wall pack and Fastrack terminal track.So how do I increase power to track if expansion proves to be too much for dc wall pack?  

Many thanks folks.

You mentioned the CW-80:   I did a test running three LionChief locos with smoke on, and 6 lighted buildings and 6 Fastrack turnouts, one lighted bumper, and the CW-80 handled everything perfect.   You can pick these up fairly cheap, but you want a recent one made within the last few years.   Of course there are plenty of alternative transformers to consider, I just wanted to respond to the effect the CW-80 will work.

Old C,

    I recommend you purchase at least Z1000 for your little layout, and get rid of that mini power operation.  the Z1000 has enough power to run your trains, and the rest of your layout.  It also has the modern quick resettable breakers to safe guard everything.

Good luck with your layout.

PCRR/Dave

I have a 2 loop 072 and 060 currently w/2 remote fastrack switches.  I am running 2 lionchief diesels one on each loop.  Power wise I am using a 180w powerhouse to terminal block and connecting each loop at various points w power/ground feeders.  Switches are ran off of track power as well.  NO issues power wise.  You will need a 2nd power supply for accessory lighting etc. as these should stay off of track power but a CW80 would work fine.  Note: If you use a powerhouse there is an adapter for the powerhouse so you don't have to cut the plug off to wire directly to the track terminals.  My layout is 8x14 2 loop.

One other thing about lionchief, remember they need 18v of constant power to track just like legacy so the powerhouse is great if you ever upgrade to legacy as well.  Traditional transformer will work just a space hog in my opinion vs the powerhouse ($99 bucks)

If your layout outgrows one powerhouse just add another in the same fashion as above. 

Lionel now sells a 4Amp wall pack. The 2A or 4A are not intended for accessory power. track only. Yes, it is now too small for your layout.

if you made a jumper from the terminal track to a track half-way around the loop, it would help.

Also, keep in mind that the wall packs included supply DC power. The LionChief trains will run on AC or DC.

So, I think the accessories are the issue. The FasTrack switch can stay on track power, it draws very little when fired.

Depends on what you want to spend. All good ideas above.

Great info Moonman !  Could you explain a bit more about how to run the jumpers, what wire do you use and do you attach to the  underside of FasTtrack to the little connector box to accept accessory wires ? Thank you for your assistance.

O.C.

yes the jumpers or additional feed wire is connected to the underside of the fastrack.

also your avatar does not meet forum guide lines.

read number 9

The in box 36 watt DC power supply is enough to run the engine and about 3 light up coaches. Sounds like you may have some dirty track since my Lionchief 2-4-2 does the same thing when it hits a patch of it. Any modern 80 watt AC oscale transformer should be good for one engine and a few accessories, and give a few more speed options.

In the preview of the 2015 product line up Lionel said the lionchief transformers are for powering the new accessories via a track connector, probably the 72 watt version.

The DC wall wart could supply more power than the AC do to how they work. Just a guess mind you.

As a side note you don't need the full 18 volts for it to work. I have heard as low as 12 volts, which given the plus line probably shares some of the same electronics makes sense. My engine smoke unit off ran fine on a half throttle 4250 transformer (no modern breaker) as an experiment.

I would like to share my findings with Lion Chief and Lion Chief Plus engines and the 36Watt (2amp) wall pack.

i originally bought a Polar Express 10th anniversary set as my introductory to O Guage.

I added about 3x more track and it ran without any issues (no accessories).

i then bought the Lion Chief Plus GP7 and added even more track and it pulled 8 freight cars fine until I tried to fire the electro couplers. The engine would just power off momentarily.

So I turned off the fan smoke unit and bingo it ran fine.

Tonight I ran the GP7 without smoke but tried to pull a consist of ACL aluminum passenger cars (they are all lit) and at a certain speed (mid-hi) it would power off.

what I have learned is you can run a bigger layout with the small pack but not with any extras going on.

I was considering the 72W (4amp) wall pack but after reading this post I am considering the 180W powerhouse wired directly to the track for constant 18V power and lots of watts.

My question is:  

Is the powerhouse AC voltage?

"Is the powerhouse AC voltage?"

Yes.  Suggest only using with Lionel's command lockon or similar device.

Actually, the PH180 has one of the best circuit breakers of any modern transformer, and I don't see why you'd need the TMCC Direct Lockon with it.  If anything, I'd install a TVS protection diode across the track feed, something that the TMCC Direct Lockon doesn't have internally anyway.

While it doesn't have an effect in this situation, the TMCC Direct Lockon is also totally incompatible with DCS, it stomps the signal.  I got rid of mine because I really didn't see the utility of it anyway.

Gentlemen,

   Guns is absolutely correct the 180 has some of the best breakers ever made and

delivers the power required for a medium/large layout.  IMO the direct lock on limits your layout severely, it is not DCS compatible, I would get rid of it if I were you.  AlsoI still recommend having enough power to expand when required however.  Always over power your layouts, the old ZW's with 4 working channels does the job quite well and is not as expensive as the new ZW-L or the Z4K.  I differ with Guns, in that I do not use bricks at all, this however is just personal preference as to which way to power the layout, either way in reality works quite well.  

PCRR/Dave

Thanks for all the help everyone.

Gunner, If I did not use the direct lock on what would you recommend for a connection to the track.

At the moment I just have the DC plug terminal track.

I did read somewhere in these posts that there is an adapter plug but I'm not familar with it or the part number.

Would that adapter be for a track with the lock on connector?

 I'm using Fastrack.

I simply buy this Molex shell at at 27 cents: http://www.digikey.com/product...92032&vendor=900

Then I buy the contacts for it here: http://www.digikey.com/product...1119/WM1103-ND/26390

You can simple fold the contacts over the bare ends of the track connection harness and solder them, most folks don't have the crimp tool. 

Swanny,

    Almost all FasTrack pieces have slide connections on each piece of track.  Located under the FasTrack you will see the mid rail and outside rail slide connectors.  Lionel sells already made up wire connectors for them or you can make your own.  I suggest you use at least a Z-1000 or old ZW if you are planning to expand to a larger layout.  If you plan on using both DCS and Legacy purchase Barry's O Gauge Companion Book and the OGR Video guide to DCS.  The small transformer with direct lock on, limits you in your layout building, especially with DCS.

PCRR/Dave

You can buy the .110 blade connectors to match the Fastrack connections, also at Digikey where I pointed to the Molex parts.

The advantage of the TMCC Lockon is that it automatically resets, has indicator LEDs, is more rapid than the Powerhouse circuit breaker alone,  and comes equipped to directly connect to Fastrack without homebrew connectors.  Here is Lionel's comment on its utility:

"

when a short circuit is detected, LED indicators, and automatic power restoration"

The Powerhouse is not designed to connect directly to the track, so any misadventures would obviously not be Lionel's responsibility .  For someone operating Lion Chief or Lion Chief Plus locos, DCS compatibility is not a "current" consideration. 

That said, I don't see any great reason for using fixed 18 volts for Lion Chief or Lion Chief Plus so I prefer an adjustable voltage source like the CW80 or Z1000 or similar conventional transformers.  These locos work just fine at 10-14 volts and it's less wear and tear on lighted cabooses/passenger cars that don't have LED illumination.

The disadvantage of the TMCC Lockon is that it automatically resets!   If I have a derailment, the last thing I want happening is the power continually banging back on.

As far as "misadventures" with the PM180, pleeeeeease!  There's two wires, and for the LC or LC+, it won't matter which rail they connect on.  AAMOF, unless you have multiple transformers, it doesn't matter for anything else either.  Exactly what "misadventure" do you envision?

For the use in this thread, I see the TMCC Lockon as just an added expense for something that's not earning it's keep.

Another data point, though not germane to the LC or LC+ is that when I used the TMCC Lockon, I had multiple locomotives, both Legacy and TMCC that would falsely trigger the breaker as it passed near the track connection.  I never did come up with a reason for the issue, but there was nothing wrong with the engines, just something odd about the TMCC Lockon.  Since more than one exhibited the same issue, I chalked it up to yet another reason not to use them.

Obviously, we're both entitled to our opinion on this, but I don't see any reason to spend the extra money for this product in this environment.

Each to his own.  But Lionel's engineers obviously thought it was a good idea as a safety device, and that's how the system was designed.  You modify the components at your own risk, which as a knowledgeable person, is quite reasonable for you.  But most of us do not have your technical knowledge and are better off using these devices as designed.  Hence the lockon.  The possible misadventure is not responding quickly enough to a short circuit and causing damage to the locomotive(s).  The lockon, according to some sources, including Lionel, acts more quickly than the Powerhouse circuit breaker.  Most of the time it may not matter I'd guess, but faster is better if it doesn't trip unnecessarily.

The lockon does not reset until the short circuit is resolved, so I don't see that as a problem.  It's a feature, not a bug .  I've never experienced a false short circuit detection with the two lockons I've used in a decade's use so I suspect your experience is possibly due to the particularly setting in which you were using it.  Perhaps a low level intermittent short at that point in the track?  The lockon is highly sensitive, which is part of the design.  It doesn't entirely mitigate the need for TVS, but I'd speculate it may minimize the likelihood of damage in the absence of a TVS.  I've never burned out a TMCC loco in 20 or so years of operation, which seems better than most people's experiences, and I have plenty of TVS's, just never installed them .

In summary, Lionel designed the Powerhouse to work with the Lockon or with the ZW-C or the Powermaster.  That's what all the rest of us might be wise to do unless we have substantial expertise in electronics/electrical equipment at a professional level.