Lionel . . . Keep the orange !!

I have Windows, but like many others, I am switching to Mac. Lionel please provide support for Apple systems with whatever changes you make!

Odd no one is screaming for a Mac version of the DCS loader or RR-Track

Once again for clarity, everything on the Orange modules can be easily entered manually or will be able to be done with the IR track

 

Chris I agree with you in that all software vendors need to provide Mac versions. 

As a recent Mac convert (a old iMac G5 my BIL let me have to try out). I have to say I have become a fan. 

 I have been looking at replacing our company PCs with Mac's. In my research it appears that a lot of commentators expect OS X and iOS to become a lot similar. Thus if Lionel are doing a ipad app it would be a logical step that the app might evolve to allow updates via iOS and then you would not need a desktop or laptop computer.

 

Nick

Let's not forget that with DCS, you put the engine on the track, push a couple of buttons on the remote, and the engine loads its own data to the remote. No module, no manual entry, no IR attachment, no Windows download. The only thing you need Windows for is if you need to update your system or change sound sets on a locomotive. And if you got your system from the LHS, he bloody well should do that for you for free. Anything that makes Lionel less convenient to load a new engine to the system is a competitive disadvantage. 

I consider the orange modules like the keys to owning a new car. Just gotta have them. Kind of a nice reminder of what you have bought. I agree to please keep them because of that.

One of the features I very much like about DCS (I have and use both systems).  No extra steps to get up and running, and very intuitive.

I sound out my vote for Mac/OSX support too. Windows is a fading O/S. Windows 8 seems like Microsoft's best effort to kill themselves. Even where I work we've begun switching to Mac. Presently, MS is positioned just like Apple was in the 1990's and well.....

I have hundreds of Windows PCs install in my business customers and no one have problems. But home customers have a lot of problems, from my experience it's all their fault as they download an install everything free they can find on the web, their PCs are so bloated,  they barely crawl.  Peoples with Mac don't have those problems as less free stuff are available on the web.  I do agree that Windows 8 Metro crap is a mistake, Microsoft  don't seems to know what to do to stop Google. 

Guys,

To help answer your questions on why there's no MAC app for this or that for our trains, go to your nearest Fry's, Best Buy (while they're still around) or any other mainstream computer store that caters to both PC and Mac.

 

Take note of the number of isles and isles of shelves full of software and hardware for PCs.

 

In that same store, take note of the number of isles and shelves full of software and hardware dedicated to Macs.

 

...That's your answer.

 

You'll notice that the only place where you find a store chocked full of Mac software, hardware and material are in, well, Mac stores.  If you go with a consumer product that holds less than 10% of overall market share, you're going to find your choices limited.  Until/if that paradigm significantly changes, It's literally that simple.

Folks,  The Orange module may not be included with the loco in next year's O gauge product.  Currently it is not included with current production Flyer locos.  The Legacy V1.51 operating system presets all of the module settings, and even expands the functions with the AUX2 menu.  The only item you need to enter is the name and road number - which is very quick, and only once.

 

While this seems like an inconvenience, many folks change the name we pre-select, opting for a better identifier after loading the Orange module.  The IR track and LSU allow over-riding the Orange module settings.  Many of the new features in V1.51 we are now bringing to you cannot be preset by an Orange module.

 

At some point you have to move forward and expand the features, even if it changes the product deliverable.   Note for MAC users, the iPad is your solution as we plan to migrate the LSU features to the iPad. 

 

And note: we can make the module available for a particular loco via Customer Service (for a handling charge). 

I like the LSU on the iPad idea!

"The very fact that the LSU can control the serial data when using an emulator proves that a Mac can be used to do this. It's just a question of investing what may be a significant amount of money, time and effort into the software development. "

 

It proves the HARDWARE is capable of the proper data transfer, not the Mac software drivers that control the hardware.  When you run Windows on a MAC you're not using the MAC OS drivers and it's not an "emulator" it's virtualization.  When Windows is running virtualized it in effect interacts directly with the hardware.  The Mac OS has nothing to do with it. I think that new Mac drivers would have to be written and then maintained for every hardware change.  That's not going to happen.

Me too. However, I don't understand all about what I am asking, but iPad to usb to serial to Legacy base to make the update  modules? Or new base with USB? Or new base with wireless to receive update and update the cab?

I'm sorry Chris, but I have to disagree.  I run Windows on my Mac under Parallels. This is a Mac OS application that has to follow the regular Mac OS rules and regulations. Otherwise I could not run the same piece of software on multiple Macs with differing hardware and operating system software configurations. As I sometimes run up to 3 Parallels sessions at once, each using a different version of Windows it cannot be allowing Windows direct access to the hardware. I maintain that Parallels is a very clever piece of software that is interpreting the Windows hardware calls and passing them through to the Mac OS to be serviced. Therefore with enough will and effort a Mac native LSU could be developed.

I don't get why you run Windows in VM on a MAC, I own a Imac, a Macbook air and none of them run Windows in VM. Honestly a MAC is not enough powerful to run VM, In some of my Windows Desktop I run VMware Workstation and I usea  i7 or AMD 8 cores CPU with 16 and 32 gb of ram, also some VM are on separate Hard Drive, you bottleneck greatly your MAC with a Windows running in VM on the same hard drive, do you self a favor, if you need Windows install it on a PC. 

I run windows 7 in parallels and it performs just fine (games, no less) and Mac performance is unaffected. Of course, is am running an 8 core Mac Pro with 12g of memory. 

 

Your suggestion to get a second machine won't work for most people who don't want all that hassle for limited use. 

The bigger issue for me is not the orange modules but the lack of support for LSU on Mac. While this may have been justifiable 10 years ago -- its not today. Its no longer a "windows world".

 

There's obviously a demand for a Mac LSU. If other manufacturers can create devices that work with serial to USB adapters on the Mac, surely Lionel can. 

 

Lastly, you can run Windows on a Mac natively without virtualization using Boot Camp and it works just as good or better than on a PC.

 

Games ?  come on, you don't play the same games as me for sure, throw me some tittles.   8 cores;  it's a dual Quad Xeon , not quite preforming for gaming purpose. with is low 2,8 ghz speed.  I guess at the end it'S depend of the expectation of the users, may be I'm too much enthusiast when it come to computers

Jon Z perhaps you should add this to your signature...

"not quite preforming for gaming purpose."

because the primary purpose is photography and videography. 

"I'm sorry Chris, but I have to disagree.  I run Windows on my Mac under Parallels. This is a Mac OS application that has to follow the regular Mac OS rules and regulations. Otherwise I could not run the same piece of software on multiple Macs with differing hardware and operating system software configurations. As I sometimes run up to 3 Parallels sessions at once, each using a different version of Windows it cannot be allowing Windows direct access to the hardware. I maintain that Parallels is a very clever piece of software that is interpreting the Windows hardware calls and passing them through to the Mac OS to be serviced. Therefore with enough will and effort a Mac native LSU could be developed."

 

Don't be sorry....disagreements can be fun.

 

Parallels is a Hypervisor.   It supplies vertualization services that allow a "guest" (in this case Windows) to APPEAR (from the point of view of the guest) to interact directly with the hardware.  The guest drivers are used to control hardware and completely bypass other Guests (which Mac OS is when you run Parallels).  You're right it's VERY clever software.  It's specifically built to allow exactly what you're doing...run multiple guest simultaneouldy without interferring with each other.  The Hypervisor's job is to manage this.  It appears to each guest that they have their very own set of hardware.  It doesn't pass the Windows requests to Mac OS but through the Parellels hypervisor directly to the hardware.  It even can let you create virtual hardware where none exists (extra virtual CPUs or memory)

 

Here's some more info on Parallels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...lels_Desktop_for_Mac

I think that we are going to have to agree to disagree on this Chris.  I'm very familiar with Parallels, and have been using it daily since version 3 back in '07.  I'm not running my Mac OS as a guest in my configuration, only as the host OS. In this case the hardware service calls are still passed through the host OS after being managed by the Parallels software. This is one reason why Macs are historically more stable than Windows systems. Unrestricted access bypassing the OS is not allowed. Even more important when you remember that there is no physical COM serial port in the PC sense, but a re-mapped USB port with an adaptor. So I still maintain that a Mac OS version of LSU is technically possible if the will to develop it existed.

 

But all of this technical dispute won't get us away from the crux of the matter, which is that the withdrawal of the modules by Lionel is going to be a major pain in the posterior for many, and will cause unwanted cost and inconvenience at least until everyone has upgraded to V1.51 or later.

 

I personally think that this transition away from the modules could have been handled considerably better from a public relations standpoint. I understand the reasons for this change, and I can see the future benefits. But for quite a fair number of people, especially the less technically minded, the initial disturbance is going to be significant.

Nicole unless you are talking about old Windows like Windows 98, you are deep wrong;  every Windows hosted virtual OS don't have access to the physical layer, they all pass by the kernel. The only virtual OS that have direct access to the hardware are bare metal one, and they are use in servers and also in Windows 8 hyper-v. 

 

this is an example at left of  the layer of a Windows hosted OS, WMware Workstation and at right the bare metal hyperviser found on Servers, like hyper-v and ESXi 

 

As far as  Apple been more stable than Windows, lol, you have not try one of my PCs, Work Stations and Servers,  they work flawless 24/7, it's what the user put in is PC that make it stable or not. They perform more too, Apple CPU are 3 generations back , Intel CPU gain 10% more performance between each generation, so do the math.

 

 

 

 

here a bigger view to see clearly that Windows is between the virtualisation layer and the Hardware 

 

So do I still get the orange modules?or look for wind up trains?

 

Gunny

So Lionel saves $10 on a Legacy engine orange plug in and loses a $1000 sale. Not the smartest business decision I have heard lately.

 

Tony

Up on "The D & H Bridge Line"

I guess you could look at it this way... You'll pass up a nice engine because of a $10 module that you don't need anyways.

Jon in a club setting the orange modules are an asset.  In a club setting you are dealing with many people using the same base and the base is not available to just anyone to hook up a computer.  With the orange modules the club members just load their modules and are good to go.  I hope you will re-consider this decision.

The Black modules and 1.51 allow you to put up to 99 engines onto one module. including your customized names (ie Dodge's 4014)

 

You bring 4 engines, you would only have to bring one module, beats trying to track many modules. Most members could easily put all their engines onto one module and bring it with them along with any assortment of engines they decide to use that night. Once again one module instead of trying to find the other various modules at their house

You guys have made me a convert! I will admit I was wrong! I now see that in light of all the new enchancements that the orange modules are going to be obsolete. With the black module. It one and done and on to the club. So to speak. Time to invest in a good laptop. I am planning to leave space next to my two zwl's and cab two's on my next control panel to have room for an ipad. That is when I get all these things. Talk about 21 century train control wow. My very first marx train I played with as a kid had a allstate transformer in the shape of a small metal black box. It was my uncles set. Wait till he sees my set up when he comes to visit next.

Thanks for the info. jon. 

iOS version of LSU. Cool.

As I said in my earlier post iOS and OS X appear to be converging so will probably end up with iOS running on a Mac.(rumor has it that Apple already have Mac's running iOS).

Then I guess will be able to run the LSU iPad app on a Mac.

 

Nick

Dear PC-Quebec, I think that you have misunderstood my post rather completely, but in doing so, your diagrams have actually proved my argument very nicely. Thank you.   I fully agree with you that it's the dodgy stuff that people load onto their machines that cause 99% of the problems, and this is why I stated that Macs have historically been less prone to problems as Apple have not allowed such dodgy software to run on a Mac.

I do think that you need to revise your opinions on processors and performance though, as your information is seriously flawed and outdated. But this is not the place to discuss that subject, and I don't wish to detract from the real subject of this thread. Best regards.

We detract from the tread because peoples are bashing PC here, I wonder why 90 % of peoples are using Windows.

 

I don't need to review anything, I run a computer business since 1979 and I have 51 technicians working for me.

 

In my shop we are still building new PCs with com port ( a real rs-232 with 9 pins) for our customers with specific requierement, as exemple robots in an assembly line or lab equipment. If someone is interested I can start a tread on how to build a $ 300 PC with a real rs-232 com port , so peoples  can have a dedicated PC  for their train room, far better than using the family PC or running Windows in an Apple 

This is a most interesting thread,  and I thank all the contributors; whether pro or against Mac or PC, or Black vs. Orange.

 

I read the Forum and contribute when I can, but I try not to spend too much time doing so as I have many other things to do, including working on my layout. (I honestly don’t know how I got everything done before I retired, less than a year ago.) Still, my Community Ranking is #25.

 

I had no clue of Legacy v1.5, or LSU, or the Black Modules until last week – my first trip to York. Had I not attended the Lionel Users Group meeting, I may have not learned about these new Lionel offerings.

 

Which begs the question: What about the many Lionel Legacy owners that do not even know that the OGR forum exists and do not go to York? How do they learn about these things?

 

Thank you all, and keep the information coming.

 

BTW, I stopped building computers from scratch and programming in assembly language about 15 years ago, and I can barely follow the technical discussion anymore.

 

Alex

This thread will not inspire new blood; people who are/have been thinking about getting into O gauge model trains.

 

O gauge customers should not have to concern themselves with technology issues.

 

Reliable technology - should be a given. Make your products simple to use... Customers shouldn't have to concern themselves with their equipments inner workings/technology... unless, they want to.

 

Rick

 

 

Ok, original thread maker here. Obviously, I was out of the loop with regard to orange, black, LSU, 1.5, etc. Sigh . . . Riddle me this . . I did a send to Lionel Legacy base upgrade. To get from where i am to 1.5, don't I need either the Black module or a windows hookup? Clueless in Carmel.

You could, but I would confirm with Lionel that they are upgrading to 1.5 first

I'm not really sure what is being discussed here - and I don't want to read through three

pages to find out - but I got a somewhat damaged but completely functional Legacy

2-6-6-2 at auction last month.

 

Electronically it's fine, and it even blows "steam" from it's cute little whistle (not needed). I don't find that the Odyssey2 is any better than the Odyssey1 on my earlier 2-6-6-2, but

the loco runs sweetly. There are repairs to make...mostly cosmetic...opportunity for

bashing...the bent cab roof will be a challenge, but do-able...must be a tough loco...

 

Anyway, I paid a RK price for it, and it runs just fine on TMCC and a CAB-1. I "entered"

all I needed: ENG+##+SET. What's the fuss?