Lionel 180W PH Relay

I don't have a definitive answer, but I'll help you by bumping this post. I'm sure GRJ will have the answer if he sees this. Anyway, from what little information I could find, I think an Omron G5LE-1 DC9 may be the equivalent. You can find these at Digi-Key, Mouser or other distributors.

Thanks Keith

Finally got around and got it open. Looks like I was wrong relay seams fine but it definitely isn’t tripping. I have a schematic someone posted a while back I’ll just have to do some more investigating. I have confirmed also that this was one that got the polarity reversed when it was built. Might flip those wires around and go from there, I know that shouldn’t change anything but guess I’ll see.

I doubt flipping the wires around will change this issue.

@Oman posted:

Anyway, from what little information I could find, I think an Omron G5LE-1 DC9 may be the equivalent.

How sure are  you about this replacement?  I can't seem to find any information on the Millionspot H200S09 relay.

The screwdriver is a triangular tip, I made mine grinding down an old Phillips head screwdriver since I didn't have the actual screwdriver.

         Click on graphic to enlarge.

In the schematic, both U1b and U1c are amplifying the current sense signal.  U1c, the "overload" detector, has a gain of 148, but it is slowed down by the resistor and capacitor on its output.  The time constant (RxC) is 2.6 seconds.  Multiple short hits to this RC combination would charge it up until it trips the relay latch.

U1b has a gain of 37, which means it requires 4 times as much current, but it acts instantaneously for "dead short" situations.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I doubt flipping the wires around will change this issue.

How sure are  you about this replacement?  I can't seem to find any information on the Millionspot H200S09 relay.

The screwdriver is a triangular tip, I made mine grinding down an old Phillips head screwdriver since I didn't have the actual screwdriver.

        Click on graphic to enlarge.

In the schematic, both U1b and U1c are amplifying the current sense signal.  U1c, the "overload" detector, has a gain of 148, but it is slowed down by the resistor and capacitor on its output.  The time constant (RxC) is 2.6 seconds.  Multiple short hits to this RC combination would charge it up until it trips the relay latch.

U1b has a gain of 37, which means it requires 4 times as much current, but it acts instantaneously for "dead short" situations.

John

All I could find was a photo of the bottom of a Millionspot H200S12 relay. It looked a lot like the Omron. I couldn't verify dimensions or pinout, but most of these Chinese relays are knock offs of the originals. I assumed that the H200S09 is a 9 volt relay.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I doubt flipping the wires around will change this issue.

How sure are  you about this replacement?  I can't seem to find any information on the Millionspot H200S09 relay.

The screwdriver is a triangular tip, I made mine grinding down an old Phillips head screwdriver since I didn't have the actual screwdriver.

        Click on graphic to enlarge.

In the schematic, both U1b and U1c are amplifying the current sense signal.  U1c, the "overload" detector, has a gain of 148, but it is slowed down by the resistor and capacitor on its output.  The time constant (RxC) is 2.6 seconds.  Multiple short hits to this RC combination would charge it up until it trips the relay latch.

U1b has a gain of 37, which means it requires 4 times as much current, but it acts instantaneously for "dead short" situations.

Thanks for the help that’s the schematic I have. You have any idea of how to test this without shorting the wires ? 😅

I really doubt flipping the wires will do anything either but some of us have to start somewhere 😉

@zhubl posted:

Thanks for the help that’s the schematic I have. You have any idea of how to test this without shorting the wires ? 😅

I really doubt flipping the wires will do anything either but some of us have to start somewhere 😉

Well, I have an idea, but without things like a 'scope, and some electronics knowledge, I doubt they're going to be of much use to you.

Please do share I have a scope, it’s a little older technology (analog) and I can be all thumps at the component level sometimes but I can always get my dad Involved he’s been a Avionics tech for 25 years

Well, if you have no power, the relay is most likely always energized.  First thing, measure across it's coil.  If there's no voltage, then the relay is probably bad. If there is voltage, something has failed in the trigger circuit.

If you look at the circuit, you'll see that L1 is the current sensor, it's what starts the triggering process.  However, if nothing is connected, it's unlikely to be that circuit as the only way it outputs voltage is by induced current.  I'd start working my way through U1b and U1c first and see if they're charging up C5, that would trip the relay.  If so, I'd consider maybe replacing the LM324.  If that circuit isn't tripping, then I'd look at the transistor Q1 next, does it have a constant positive voltage on the base of more than .6 volts?  If so, perhaps something is amiss with the latching circuit.  Q1 could also be shorted.

@zhubl Zachariah, John makes some great suggestions for what and how to check.  Since you mentioned that the brick was VERY warm, once you have it disassembled, I would also suggest starting by visually examining the components and circuit board for signs of high heat (scorching, blistering, and burnt circuit traces on the board).  This may help you narrow your search for what's amiss.  While you're looking, you might also see if there are any unintentional solder bridges, and check the electrolytic capacitors for leaking, bulging or where the plastic covers on them may have shrunken.

Johns's suggestions would follow.

Given how the actual transformer power is conveyed to the outputs, it's pretty hard for me to imagine that enough current is flowing through the PCB to actually heat up the transformer if there is no load on the output!  When you trace the actual transformer power through the circuit, I'm not seeing how you get a short that would heat anything up, the 68 ohm resistor at R2 seems to preclude any shorting.  Now, I can imagine a possibility of a major meltdown on the board maybe, but that will be obvious by casual inspection, but I'm rating that possibility as very unlikely.

Point taken, if you're lucky, sometimes a quick detailed visual inspection can save time vs. checking all the components electrically without first looking for the obvious.  I just wanted to point out what the obvious things to look for would be, in case it's not obvious to those who may be interested.

Steve, no argument that you should first eyeball the board to see if something obvious went up in smoke, as you say, basic common sense.

I just was pointing out that my experience inside these things leaves me to believe that it's not real likely that you'd have an internal short that could actually heat up the transformer core, that would be pretty rare based on the design.

Uh...forgive my naysaying....but since these bricks sell for $45 on the used market, how can any repair possibly be worth it? GRJ has already given more than $45 in diagnostic expertise in this thread! Chuck the thing and get another.

Don Merz

You can find a PH180 for $45?  Please show me where???

@Don Merz 070317 posted:

Uh...forgive my naysaying....but since these bricks sell for $45 on the used market, how can any repair possibly be worth it? GRJ has already given more than $45 in diagnostic expertise in this thread! Chuck the thing and get another.

Don Merz

Don,

They're currently running triple that at a minimum.  Take a look around.

Mike

Thanks for all the great information and help especially GRJ. I forgot to mention I got it open and have been poking around. The relay itself seams fine so my original idea went down the drain, the circuit definitely isn’t tripping. Q1 is not shorted. I’ll go around and check other spots, considering that there isn’t much to this I may get the LM324.

Steve yes a good visual inspection is always good, unfortunately no spectacular failures involving magic smoke.

$45 180W PH bricks? Please more information this one is from 2001and came from the bay for twice that.

PS John I have also made the triangle bit to get into CW-80’s. This one was different, I had a bit in my security bit set from harbor freight but couldn’t get it down far enough. I had to resort to making my own again 😉

Well, the first step in ANY electronic troubleshooting project should be to check the power supply.

1. Is the transformer putting out the correct voltage?

2. Is the +8V supply working? (Assuming your unit is represented by the print above, I don't know if the new bricks are like that or not.)

3. Is your brick one of the new ones that needs the jumper in the power plug?

All good questions above.  Obviously, if the transformer isn't putting out voltage, there's no sense in looking at the board!  Ditto with the power to the circuit.   I guess I assume too much, making sure there's power is obviously the first thing to check.

That looks like the old brick circuit board, but it's been quite a while since I've opened one, and I've never opened a new one.  However, the odds of finding that obsolete relay in the new one would be very remote.

I appreciate that asking to the simple obvious questions that we sometimes glaze over. I like to think that if anyone was digging in this far they would’ve already done that first but sometimes we forget 😉

yes simple voltage readings is the very first thing I did. 19.5VAC out of the transformer core with no load and 8VDC out of the regulator.

Hopefully some evening this week I’ll get a chance to look at it again and go from there.

John it is definitely an older brick, stamp on the bottom says 2001. I am almost curious what they changed on the newer bricks, not curious enough to go open one though 😉.

The new bricks came out a couple of years ago, they were out of production for some time before that. I suspect due to component shortages they replaced things like the relay, and also the UL requirements needed the connector switch that has been discussed here before.

I have never had my hands on one of the new bricks as I have a bunch of the old bricks purchased on the used market.  Cheapest I ever got one for is $50, most were $70-80.  I have four on my layout, and three more waiting in the wings in case I need them.

UPDATE

Firstly a huge thanks to all the help especially from @gunrunnerjohn. In the end I should learn to quit second guessing myself. The relay was bad I had a relay that fit and does operate. Probably not the best selection but I had it on hand.

it is a 12VDC relay, like I said it does operate on the 8V. And the pin out matched. If I remember correctly this a Form C relay, it is a little long and does make a tight fit on the PCB but it will fit 😉

Cool, and finding a relay with the right pin spacing was a nice plus!

Turns out that Digikey has the 9V coil replacement: Omron G5LE-1 DC9 at Digikey