Lionel 2012 Volume 2, What are you ordering??

 

Living an hour's drive from the Mexican border and having lived in Mexico and ridden the Barrancas del Cobre scenic train, I'd LOVE to get an N de M Centipede. However, I cannot justify spending $1,000 on a single unit diesel. At that price, the announcements had better be in Spanish - and Mexican Spanish at that! I just bought an MTH Swiss-prototype electric with announcements in authentic Swiss-German dialect - Lionel needs to match that for authenticity. 

I'll be buying a New iPad for the CFO this fall.

-wait-

We usually recriprocate gifts in the same price point assuming budget allows.

Now, let's see...page....

I agree with Marty & David's comments.

 

NOTHING!

 

No Wabash passenger cars for my F7s and no NS Heritage Wabash diesel. No N&W J set because its the same old same old same old same old Lionel gives N&W fans the shaft. I've been waiting for a quality Legacy/Vision N&W steamer from Lionel since they started making the scale stuff. I did buy a N&W Mallet and for $1,000.00 it HAS whistle smoke!!!!!!

 

I'm real disappointed with the J offering with no whistle smoke feature. This J should have had everything the S3 had. I have and S3 by the way. I would have paid more for those features in the J. I think the Mohawk set looks awesome and I'm not a New York Central fan but if it had whistle smoke, I would have really considered it.

 

I didn't buy the Lionel Vision Line Hudsons when they first came out. After a year or so I bought the grey one and then had to have a black one. The features on those engines are worth the money.

 

My friend Chuck is buying the 612. I'll get to see and hear it before I decide on whether to buy a 611 break-up or set after they come out. The only way I'll get one is if the sounds are dead on and the blowout price is right.

 

This catalog is awesome! Nothing for me to buy!

Since I have the 606 and not the 611, I will most likely still purchase the 611 set BUT will be a bit miffed if in 2 years time a J with the steam effect whistle is delivered.

What!?  Nobody is ordering at least one of the new NASCAR sets?  Hard to believe... NOT!

 

Nothin' in this one for the likes of me.  Too much money, too much whizbang.  Cracks me up that for some there's not enough whizbang.  If Lionel decides to offer more of it then we can listen to them howl about the price increase.

 

Pete

I agree with Marty and Mike.  Lionel is a victim of their own success.  As I and others have stated, Lionel has raised the bar for what constitutes a premimum steam engine.  I am happy to spend premuim dollars on a feature-rich premium Legacy steam engine.  I am less inclined to spend premium dollars on a Legacy engine that does not possess all of the premium features I have come to expect.  I am not complaining, just stating an opinion in a what I hope to be percieved not whiney way.

I and fine with the j with no steam affects if it was 900 bucks not 1100..The issiue is what we ussally get for 1100 bucks and where just getting a 2005 remake with legacy ..

Marty i am gonna make it a smoking whistle. I will  just buy the parts of Model  that has it and drill a hole .. Not jking

It seems to me that the Mohawk and J are re-runs of the prior models with Legacy electronics. However, in some respects they have less features. Neither seem to have the variable ashpan glow feature that their predecessors had. I was hoping for more not less in the way of features. Very disappointing. On the bright side - I'm so glad I decided not to wait and bought the 6-38095 J last year. No whistle steam, but everything else about it is as good as Legacy.

I agree 100% with MartyE. That is four steamers in row now starting with the Berks without Whistle Steam or steam chest emission. For $1300 & none of these features, it is way out of line in pricing. $1100 would be much more reasoneable. Another question, the Mohawk is only 25 1/2" long? Seems awful short. My one from 1990 is 28 or 28 1/2" long. Wrong dimension? Anyone know? Tender must be very short. The detail is very nice on that loco, if it only had whistle steam or steam chest emission. 

The l2 Mohawk had a very small tender .. I have the rail sound 5 one and i am gonna keep it now..

I was OK. I have way too much stuff, anyway.

 

Then: Lionel has pretty accurately modeled the GS-2; different cab/number boards/tender

relative to the GS-6. I'm impressed...too impressed. Must...stop...looking...

 

And the NdeM Centipede is just gorgeous. (I'll believe it when I see it.)

 

But, I will not get them both - and steam almost always wins with me (...except there's

still that pesky CSX SD40-2 tempting me)...so I'm going to try to resist all of them.

 

BUT: definitely gonna get the command control speeder.

 

Of course I need to soothe my pain over MTH canceling the 1700 Lionel Jr (nee GM&O

Rebel) tinplate set. So - SD40-2? 

Perhaps if MTH was giving Lionel some competition these features would have been standard equipment by now in high end steam.  I don't really care about the whistle and blow-down effects myself.  The lack of competition is an issue though!

I will purchase the NYC Freight Set and Holiday Coca Cola Car,have the first two Mohawks and love them and after the debacle of the Berk with no add-ons(Steam whistle) and the catalog said they would have them soooo ignore the catalog and maybe we will get a surprise in 2013 besides a higher price. I do agree the technology is there, the bar raised, but the production ability overseas is the problem(labor,parts availability etc.).

Yes, you do have a point there.  I don't see that changing all that much in the immediate future though.  I suppose we'll see when the new MTH catalog is released this week.

 

quote:

No N&W J set because its the same old same old same old same old Lionel gives N&W fans the shaft.

I can't argue with you. I'm guessing the passenger cars will still have the stick-on windows and why didn't they offer a Pullman instead of that Observation that the Pokey didn't have.

It seems like more and more we are feeling the effects of college graduates that never did their homework!

I like the Moguls (I have the previous Boston and Maine version), but what's up with conventional only at $550?  Cutting corners, indeed.

Dimensions are correct, your 1990 mohawk is an L3  a "later" mohawk with a longer tender. This offering is an "earlier" L2a mohawk. I posted a photo of my L2a TMCC mohawk on the "catalog teaser" thread, it is 25 1/2" long.

Marty you are right about the price too. Over a grand for a Legacy version not happening here.

 

I think I will pre-order the Legacy Shay though. I think they are nice little steamers and I love the sound of Shays especially with their classic whistles.

I wonder if Lionel "shot themselves in the foot" having these added features trickle down into the regular legacy line and is now trying to pull back. No real point in a vision line IMO if you can get some of those features for $500 less. Just a thought.

Trains only run counter clockwise in these sets.

Good point Rick. My Legacy Lindbergh Special has whistle steam on it and I got it for $595. Can't get those prices anymore from Lionel and it has only been two years!

Price, features... all get wrapped up in a competitive market.  Lionel has been the only show in town now for high end diecast steam for the last couple years.  Do I like the high prices without the new features, NO!

 

Really begs the question, what was Lionel doing when they set the price on the S3?  Whatever they were doing I'm glad they did.  The S3 is one of the finest engines I've run across and could be had at a reasonable price if you pre-ordered.

Cutting off Mike Wolf after he announced "we will do the 261" that same year.

Nothing. Lionel is following Atlas O and pricing themselves out of the scale rolling stock market. Plus Lionel has completely ignored the 3RS and 2R crowd by continuing to use non-prototypical and non-compatible truck bolster designs as well as a lack of Kadee mounting capability has turned me off from Lionel products.

 

My crystal ball is as good as the next person's... but I would bet that some of these locomotives are not going to move as Lionel would expect them.  Folks will, however, need to exercise some self-control, as difficult as that may be, and wait for the opportune time to make their purchase(s).  You just may see these new J's and GS-class locomotives going for less than $1K in time.

 

Just look back on the Daylight GS-2 and Western Pacific GS-64 from the mid-2000's.  Those didn't sell that well back THEN, and dealers were forced to move them as "super sale" items.  And even without all this hoopla of steam effects and such, just look how many times dealers -- this year alone -- have been offering 10% special discounts to help move product and generate revenue.

 

Earlier in 2012, I was fortunate enough to grab a brand new Lionel DM&IR Yellowstone with whistle-steam for around $1050 (on sale).  That's a huge ARTICULATED loco, no less, for just a shade over $1K, which MSRP'd at $1,299.  And I have a similar deal on the books for Lionel's next shipment of its UP #9000 4-12-2 also MSRP'ing at $1,299.

 

Those price-points -- along with that of the S-3 -- are my "barometers", so to speak going forward.  If the new offerings don't measure up, then they stay on the dealer's shelves until someone else pays the new prices or until the prices drop to comparable levels of price/performance/value.

 

Nobody here is spoiled, whining or complaining.  We're simply acting in the role of an educated consumer making sound purchasing decisions. 

 

David

I agree! no quilling whistle in the j or the daylight!! Is legacy alone worth all that price tag. I think not. Legacy is an operating system( the best IMO) but thats it just an operating system. So for the price point lionel is asking for should we not at least get whistle steam effect and correct crew talk specific road name call out sounds. Not the generic towercom guy and engineer voices!!! As for the correct steam whistle sound that should be a given! If Might add it seems when MTH came out with proto2 operating system it was incorperated into the whole line top to bottom. The price was not marked up that much from past years as I recall. Why does big L think legacy is so great that just being in a product makes it command a big high price point. I just don't understand jerry's logic! Am I missing something here?

I'm hoping to save up all the money I earn next year mowing the lawn, so I'd choose between a GS class, the N&W Pocohontas, the NYC Water Level Route, SP Tanktrain, or a single unit Centipede.  Or, I might buy something from an earlier realease (Legacy ATSF 4-8-4, Legacy Mallet, S3, or Legacy Alton Ltd.)

just placed my order for 2 Norfolk Southern Heritage ES44AC number 8114 and 1982.

I believe those also require a much steeper banking than my old prewar Ives track can provide

 

I might order the separate sale 3854 merchandise car.. and see if I can find a PRR K4 or E6 from previous catalogs with the whistle steam effect.

Very disappointed that the new J, Mohawk and GS engines do not have the latest Lionel features such as whistle steam, swinging bell, etc. I will pre-order nothing. Also, I cancelled my long standing order for the ZW-L after it was pushed off to March 2013.

 

 

 

I'm in for the Santa Fe F3 "Blackbonnet" and the NYC F3 "Red Lightning.

 

Also the Coca Cola vat car, and the operating merchandise car.   Those 4 are tops on my list right now.

quote:

no quilling whistle in the j or the daylight!!

Just to get your facts straight, go back and read again.
They both are said to have the quilling whistle as a matter of fact, the GS has a quilling whistle & horn.

Well, seeing that the J and streamlined GS locomotives had rigid mount bells with air activated clappers, the mechanical aspect would be awfully hard to duplicate.  Plus the bells weren't in a easily visible location on either locomotive.

 

Rusty

You mention this all the time David, and I think now you may be more right than ever. Most dealers are still loaded with product, and now will be even moreso. Repeat items offered in this catalog are likely items still sitting on the shelf i.e berks,pacifics, conventional moguls etc.The bladwin sharks are still everywhere too,beginning to get below the $550 mark. Wait and see, I don't own a J but would like one with legacy sound, I can take or leave the added effects as long as the stack smoke is good....for the right price...of course.

I liked seeing the dummy heritage units, not to happy about the price, I will get the three pack of the Tank train cars. I really need to see what MTH comes out with on the heritage.

I think it is a nice catalog, a bit pricey but what is not now a day.

There's not much in there for the Milwaukee Road fan. Just a previously cataloged set of F units and an overpriced conventional 0-4-0 that has to have the ugliest, most non-prototypical Milwaukee Road paint job I have ever seen in my life. Gag me with a spoon. 

 

Pricing is definitely an issue. The F units provide a comparison point, as they came out at roughly the same time as a comparable MTH set. MSRP for the Lionel AA, one unit powered, is $729.99 - the same as the MTH ABA set with both A units powered! A Lionel powered B is $399.99; dummy B is $249.99. The MTH dummy B is $159.95. For a few dollars more, you can also get the MTH with scale wheels. Now, even allowing for the difference in available discounts (you can typically get about 10% off on MTH Premier, 20% on Lionel diesels with Legacy), that's a pretty big difference. Someone is going to have to do a lot of explaining to convince me that the Lionel product is worth that kind of price differential over MTH. Yes, the sound is better - but 200 bucks worth? I prefer PS/3 over Legacy anyway, for the scale MPH readout and vastly superior ergonomics - but that's a question of personal preference; I see no great technical advantage to one or the other. Either set of F units would be a step up from my old K-Line set - but the old ones run fine and look OK, and I'm mainly a steam guy so I'll save my money for the next time a deal like the Milwaukee Road S3 Northern shows up. 

Speaking of F-units... I'm still a bit puzzled that Lionel hasn't produced the Canadian Pacific dummy B-unit yet (in the matching post-war paint scheme to go along with the AA and powered B from 2010).  I think every other recent F3/F7 series has had the full complement of ABBA produced together.  And even with all the F3's re-catlg'd in 2012 Vol 2, I thought for sure Lionel would sneak in the CP F3B dummy.  Not this time though.    Oh well... something to watch out for down the road.

 

David