Lionel 2234050 Amtrak Genesis - restarting issues?

Honestly, I believe this is firmware or an interaction with track power and the motor control protection code. LCP2 and many speed feedback "cruise" control systems also have code to protect against stalled motor condition. Normally, the idea is you command a speed, the control system ramps up power to the motor expecting to see the RPM increase as read by the encoder. However if it cannot see the motor reach the speed within  timeout- it would have then ramped up the power to the motor and if the motor was jammed and could not spin, it would burn out. So again, normally there is protection on an "if" condition in the code that the motor doesn't reach speed in x time before timeout- then motor drive is disabled. That's supposed to cause the cab light to blink a sequence indicating the fault.

However, there has been more than one report of no cab flashing light indicating stalled motor, but sure enough the engine acts like stalled motor. And it begins working after a reset.

https://ogrforum.com/...5#169515031452658865

Again, that other previous topic- again an LC+2.0 Genesis https://ogrforum.com/...-out-what-s-going-on

Dale, does this happen when pulling a heavy train?  Does it also happen when running the loco by itself?

I would turn the sound effects volume down all the way.  Listen carefully, see if you can tell whether the motor(s) inside the loco are spinning.  Your problem could be that the "spider" or cross-shaped coupling on the bottom of one or both motors is slipping on the shaft, and therefore not transferring torque to the truck assembly.  If this is the case, there are other threads on the Forum that describe reattaching the spider with Loctite.

You can also post a video illustrating the problem condition.  Good luck!

@Ted S posted:

Dale, does this happen when pulling a heavy train?  Does it also happen when running the loco by itself?

I would turn the sound effects volume down all the way.  Listen carefully, see if you can tell whether the motor(s) inside the loco are spinning.  Your problem could that the "spider" or cross-shaped coupling on the bottom of one or both motors is slipping on the shaft, and therefore not transferring torque to the truck assembly.  If this is the case, there are other threads on the Forum that describe reattaching the spider with Loctite.

You can also post a video illustrating the problem condition.  Good luck!

Ted- remember- this is MTH tooling Lionel got and stuck a LCP2 board into it. There is no such mechanism in the MTH tooling and resulting drive train. It's basically an MTH engine just with a different control board.

So much so, Lionel missed this before shipping them:

@Vernon Barry posted:

Also, something funny about these:

You will notice that on the diecast speaker and fuel tank on the bottom of these locos, a few oval stickers with inspection numbers. But key, there is one left on that says PS3 - a holdout left over from MTH production.

My fear is that later on (years from now), when people sell these and possibly without box, without manual, that PS3 sticker may cause confusion to a future buyer.

Thanks Vernon.  For whatever reason, I thought that all LionChief Plus 2.0's had the back-drivable "Legacy LionDrive."  I stand corrected!

Took me a bit of searching to find a picture. Clearly can be seen 2 things, first that PS3 sticker on the engine and the fact the trucks are still clearly MTH syle meaning the motor worm gear directly interfaces the gear in the truck- thus no liondrive coupling to fail.

I know blurry, but that's a PS3 sticker on a Lionel engine. Might be small, but it's there.

@Ted S posted:

Thanks Vernon.  For whatever reason, I thought that all LionChief Plus 2.0's had the back-drivable "Legacy LionDrive."  I stand corrected!

No problem, you didn't know. I know these because whenever a new engine series comes out and the local shop gets one, I get hands on experience without having to buy every new engine that comes out. Being MTH tooling and the sticker mistake- this series is a little special.

Again, here is my thoughts on this engine. The MTH tooling and motor truck assemblies are an extremely good design. One of the best and longest wearing problem free designs made. Very low maintenance.

I also think highly of Lionel's LCP2 control board and it's also the same board used in Legacy engines just different firmware.

I don't know the exact why or how in this Lionel Genesis series, that is causing the error. My gut says- anything that fixes itself with a reset or power cycle- that sure sounds like a glitch in firmware. A race condition where the stall safety is invoked? A stray variable in code? Especially again since we've got reports of these engines going back to lionel- no explanation of what exactly was changed and I got the impression never fully fixed the issue? https://ogrforum.com/...-out-what-s-going-on

Again, hardware wise, design wise, mechanically, should be a solid engine and even the LCP2 I know can be a good board. But, the fact is- we have seen glitches in LCP2 firmware programming- as an example a known tested LCP2 issue with locking into a direction in conventional https://ogrforum.com/topic/175427630452890616?reply=175286892943269385#175286892943269385

So yes, I hope a solution can be found- but it may take warranty and sending back to Lionel.

So the Genesis has a Legacy-derived control board, but the MTH truck design.  Hmm...

Anyone who follows my posts on here knows that I like the Legacy Liondrive design because with its back-drivable gears, the motors can help each other.  One motor can push the whole loco, turning the wheels (and the motor) that drives the other truck.  On the other hand, I have MTH PS2 diesels (especially A-A sets with four motors) that chuggle and surge when starting until all of the motors get into the linear portion of their speed-voltage curve.  MTH, Atlas, etc., use self-locking gears.  If one motor happens to start turning at a lower voltage, it can't really push the train until the other motor(s) is ready to go.  And the rubber tires don't allow the wheels to slip, so it sits there, briefly drawing a lot of current.

That sounds like a recipe to trigger the stalled motor overcurrent protection that's built into the Legacy board.  Lionel spent money, and redesigned their power truck with back-drivable gears for Legacy.  They also told GRJ that they "tune" the boards in Legacy diesels to match the application.

So here we may be dealing with a tuning mismatch.  The Legacy board thinks a motor in the Genesis is stalled (and in reality it is, briefly) until the self-locking gears in the other power truck are turned by the more reluctant of the two motors.  The problem only manifests once in a while because most of the time both motors start simultaneously.  But if one truck has a slight burr on a gear or different tolerances, it occasionally sticks and triggers the fault.  My $.02.

You might be onto a possible mechanical explanation (and I do appreciate the thoughtful and well explained analysis), but it still doesn't excuse the code.

The subtle but substantial problem is that the code appears to lock out any attempt of motor drive function- without also flashing the cab light indicating it is in fact in a safety lockout. You the user just get stuck in this condition where everything else works, but there is not even an attempt at motor drive- no hum, no current draw, nothing.  A reset, power cycle, or as reported, reconnecting to the engine may "unlock" it and then restore motor drive function.

Again, it's one thing to have a flaw in the motor stall sensing code, it's another situation entirely to have that safety code tripped- and not indicate to the user other than not functioning, it has been tripped. I call that a double fault.

Thanks to all who replied.  Ted - the issue does not appear to happen when I am running the engine by itself (I tried it half a dozen times and it didn't go into "neutral").  I am usually pulling a train of 6 MTH 60' Superliners and a 60' baggage car - so it is a bit of a heavy train but not excessively so, in my opinion.  Based on some of the input, I've tried starting the full train (after a stop) by VERY slowly turning on the power via the app (so as not to draw a lot of amps at once).  Sometimes this works, but sometimes it doesn't.  When it does "go into neutral", the headlights go off after about 2 seconds and there is no blinking light inside the cab (the cab light is on but steady).  I turned all the sounds and the motor is NOT spinning, nor does it sound like it's trying to run.  Since it starts and runs just fine when I first power it up (even with the long train), I'm sure there is no physical obstruction to the gears/wheels/etc. and the track is clean. 

So what is the consensus for what I can do?  Do I have to live with this?  Send it back to Lionel (I wouldn't even know how to do that - is there a phone number I could call or an email address)?  Something else?

Again, all of your help is very much appreciated!

Dale

I think I may have found a work-around solution to this problem.  Based on some of the replies to my original post, it appears the engine circuitry thinks there is an overload condition (i.e., drawing too many amps) when trying to restart with many cars in the train, and it goes into a safety lock-out mode (the engine doesn't do that with no cars coupled to it).  What seems to work to avoid this is whenever I stop the train, I immediately put it into reverse and back it up just enough to put some slack in the couplers.  Then, when the engine goes to restart in forward, it can move just a little bit forward with essentially no load on the engine as it takes the slack out of the couplers.  Once moving forward, there doesn't seem to be an issue.  I tested this several times with the engine and several heavy Superliners and it worked every time.

Thanks again to everyone that replied and helped me figure out this work-around.  Any additional thoughts are welcome!

Dale

Have you ever greased the internal gears on the trucks.

Lionel has has a steady stream of dry gearboxes on newer stuff.